Creative Space with Jennifer Logue
My name is Jennifer Logue and I’m on a mission to make creativity accessible to all. Through conversations with artists, entrepreneurs, filmmakers, musicians, scientists, and so much more, we’ll be exploring creativity from every possible angle with the purpose of learning and growing in creativity together. New episodes are released every Sunday and you can listen anywhere you get your podcasts. Be sure to rate and review the podcast if you enjoy it, and remember, we are all born creative. Make some space to honor your creativity today.
Creative Space with Jennifer Logue
Dr. Sally Anne Gross On Music, Mental Health, and Navigating Industry Challenges
In this insightful episode of Creative Space, Jennifer Logue sits down with Dr. Sally Anne Gross, a pioneering figure in the music industry who has spent over three decades as a practitioner, researcher, and academic. Dr. Gross, the co-author of Can Music Make You Sick?, shares her findings on the mental health challenges faced by musicians and how the pressures of the modern music industry impact their well-being.
In this conversation, Jennifer and Dr. Gross explore:
- The intense pressures artists face in today’s fast-paced digital world.
- The mental health struggles revealed in Dr. Gross’s groundbreaking research.
- Why musicians are now expected to wear many hats, from content creators to business managers.
- How the music industry can improve the working conditions and mental health of artists.
- Practical steps musicians can take to protect their well-being in a demanding field.
If you’re passionate about music, mental health, or creative industries, this episode offers a deep dive into the intersection of creativity, well-being, and the evolving challenges of being an artist today.
For more about Dr. Sally Anne Gross and her work, visit: https://www.sallyannegross.com/.
To learn more about Jennifer Logue, visit: https://jenniferlogue.com/.
SHOW NOTES:
0:00 — Introduction
1:04 — Dr. Sally Anne Gross’s Background in the Music Industry
3:15 — The Evolution of Music and Mental Health
6:10 — Mental Health Struggles Among Artists: A Groundbreaking Study
9:45 — The Role of Social Media in Increasing Pressure on Musicians
16:00 — Artists Wearing Too Many Hats: A Modern-Day Challenge
22:30 — Can Music Make You Sick? Key Findings and Takeaways
30:15 — Practical Steps for Musicians to Prioritize Mental Health
40:00 — What Record Labels and Managers Can Do to Support Artists
52:45 — Why Music’s Value is Hard to Measure
1:00:20 — Final Thoughts and Advice for Musicians Today
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Creative Space, a podcast where we explore, learn and grow in creativity together. I'm your host, jennifer Logue, and today's episode is one I'm especially excited to share with you. Joining me is Dr Sally Ann Gross, a pioneering figure in the music industry who has spent over three decades working as a practitioner, researcher and academic. She made history as the first woman to serve as director of A&R at Mercury Records UK and has worked with major artists like One Direction and William Orbit. Currently, she's a reader in music business at the University of Westminster and co-authored the groundbreaking book Can Music Make you Sick, which explores mental health challenges in the music industry. Her research has sparked critical conversations and initiatives around artist well-being.
Jennifer Logue:In today's conversation, we'll dive deep into the findings from Can Music Make you Sick, exploring the pressures that artists and creatives face, and discuss how we can all take steps to protect our mental well-being while pursuing a career in the arts. Whether you're a musician, a creative entrepreneur or simply someone who appreciates the creative process, this episode has something valuable for you. Without further ado, let's dive into this enlightening conversation with Dr Sally Ann Gross. Welcome to Creative Space, sally. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, it's such an honor to have you on the show. I just want to say that I love your book. I came across your book and I'm like, wow, this is something.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Thank you, thank you. So where are you calling from today? So I'm actually calling from North Hertfordshire, which is just a short journey from London. It's just outside London. It's, yeah, what you would call a state, what we would call I don't know what we'd call them a shire, an area? I don't know. That's really terrible what the name is. But yeah, it's a county, that's what it is. It's the county of Hertfordshire and I'm like on the Hertfordshire Cambridgeshire borders, so I'm very it's equidistant between Cambridge and London, I would say.
Jennifer Logue:That's where I am. Wonderful, sounds, lovely. I have to ask what first got you interested in music Before we?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:were recording. You mentioned you were an artist first. Yeah, you mentioned you were an artist first. Yeah, um, yeah, I mean I, I've always I do. I come from a very, um, artistic family that are very interested in music, film, photography, um dancing, you know. So music was always a very big part of my life. My, you know, my father was very into classical music and my mum was very much into jazz and blues and popular music. She was a big, big Motown fan and Nina Simone, and that house was always full of music. So I think music's just always been around me and and I suppose growing up in the 70s music was that that really primary vehicle for shaping your identity.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:It was where you found space in the world and, um, yeah, so I I think that's where it started. But I I did my first degree degrees in fine art and at that point I wanted to be an artist, but lots of I went to art school and you know so many people in art school were also in bands and music. It was very, very art. Certainly in England there's been a really strong tradition of art schools being a place where you know, john Lennon was at art school and it was just, you know, I mean so many artists went to art school before and bands came out of art school.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So it was very much, um, an intersection and and somehow, actually by chance, which is, I think, a lot of people's history in in music when they work in the business side. I started to work with artists and designers and through working with artists and designers I got more involved and it was very much at that period of time in the 80s, when there was a lot of DIY people putting records out themselves in a way like they are now, but obviously it was more difficult and starting your own label, post-punk, um, and at the beginning, you know, beginning of the dance music explosion, um, and I just I had small children and I was just well organized and I just organized everybody, and because I was just organizing everybody, I I kind of accidentally became people's managers and I accidentally kind of.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Well, maybe not so accidentally, but we we soon started our own record label and I was running a record label for my kitchen and I was managing DJs and producers and that got me in front of record companies, because then I was going into record companies and that's kind of how I got my first gig. Uh, you know, I got. I got my first kind of professional experience of working at a record with a record company was actually with Virgin Records, but I wasn't hired as staff. They, they actually hired me to manage artists, some artists that didn't have managers and also didn't have they didn't have enough income to pay the managers themselves. And it's that's actually I've been really thinking about that recently that at that time it was very important for artists that were assigned to record labels. So this is like the early 90s. It was very important.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Record companies put a lot of store on the quality of the managers that the artists had. It was important to have good managers and people at the record company recognized that I, you know, liked working with me and seemed to think that I had a good instinct for management. You know, liked working with me and seemed to think that I had a good instinct for management and so they helped support me to manage artists that didn't have enough money to pay me, because obviously I couldn't do that work. I needed to earn money. I had a small family and and that's very interesting because now there are an awful lot of artists that don't have managers very true, yeah, managers can't afford to manage artists that are far away from having sustainable incomes, so there's a kind of shortfall in that opportunity for artists to do their art and to work with people that want to do their business.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know and help them, and that's really, I would say, we're at a critical moment, because now we have thousands of people attempting to be independent artists, but they are then to do an awful lot of the work that previously a manager would have done for them to do themselves. So that you know this idea of the artist being everything the video director, the photographer, the art art producer, content producer I mean you get, you stop being a being a musician and you have to be all of these other things. And some people may argue that's always been the case that artists are a prototype of creative industry, entrepreneur, and I would say, yes, that's also true historically, but I would say that the digital environment has facilitated, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively, the way in which musicians live their lives and how they experience their hopes and dreams and aspirations, and that's what I became interested in yes, I have to say, as a musician myself, I felt so seen reading your book.
Jennifer Logue:I'm like I thought I was the only one grappling with these issues. Like there's so because you're wearing so many hats when you're actively pursuing your music career, especially with social media now, like you have to create content on top of the actual art you're producing, and it's like you're always working and it's the room for your personal life, your relationships. There's only so many hours in a day and it's something that I I don't think, at least in the us. I don't think it's as big of a conversation here about mental health and musicians, with all the pressures that every artist, every level, faces, trying to do it all themselves. To do it all themselves, um, yeah, pursue their dream, uh, so, but I want to backtrack. So, on creative space, I always ask everyone the same question what is your definition of creativity?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:wow, um, what is my definition of creativity? That's a really good question. Do we have another hour to discuss that?
Jennifer Logue:Right.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, that's a very, I think. On the most simple level, I think creativity is the making of things, of bringing something into the world. Right, it's the act of bringing something into the world, whether it's a garden or a cake, or a rocket ship, or a paper aeroplane or a song or any act. You know, creativity is more than thinking. Creative is. Creativity involves the production and putting out into the world of things that come from inside. I love that ideas made real.
Jennifer Logue:Yes, bringing the inside out, I love that idea. Oh my gosh yeah it's only until recently that I realized, like if I whip up you know a cake, or if I whip up a new recipe, like that's creativity too. For a long time I just thought of it as like music, writing, art, you know, and I love that. It just gives me such a bigger appreciation for life, seeing that there's so many ways we can be creative every day yeah, of course there's a massive.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:There's a massive politics of creativity. There's a hierarchy of of the importance of creativity and if we just take it from a feminist perspective, we could say oh well, the things that men make get, get higher up there, and the things that women do get, but you know so. Women do cooking, but men do. Men are chefs, men are creators, you know so. We can see this in so many. You know, women made it. You know? Um, my sister-in-law is a professor of photography, photographic history, and she looks at. Her speciality is 19th century photo albums produced by women that were just seen as domestic mementos. But these women were working at the beginning of photography, so no one thought of them as photographers. They just thought of oh look, they're just making family albums. I mean, now, everybody is a photographer. Anybody has a point as a photographer, right? Yeah, and every single person is making photographs. Once upon a time, my father was a photographer, so once upon a time, photography was a new kind of magic. It was a science.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:It was also a kind of new magic. And was it an art? And you know, I think that you know harping, or just as we talk generally about the ways in which technology has influenced how we live, I think photography is a. It's very good to see this visual medium because I think people can see it, unlike music in which people, in a way, you're so used to music, you've become so used to it. Music is everywhere, images are everywhere, but there's a strange difference between taking that image, seeing that image, loading it up, because not everybody is making music, not everybody is singing, not everybody is composing or thinking how will this music begin and end? But because photographs are now so fast, they're so fast, they're so fast, and then you've got your image and then you're like, wow, isn't that great. And is it an image of what you just took? Is it an image of a thing you saw in front of you? Or is it the act of you holding your camera, taking that image, editing it? You know.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So, photography, for me is a very good way of explaining the difference between the idea, the idea, what we have as intellectual property.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know an intellectual property, which is one of the things that I teach, is, is um about the expression of ideas, right, the idea itself. You can't lock down the idea itself ideas are shared but you can lock down your expression of that idea. So when you take a photograph on your camera of a blade of grass or a flower in the park, that is your image, right? And I often use photography and image making to explain the complications and the complexity of how we feel about expressions of ideas and how we feel about creativity. Now, because I think there are lots of people that are taking photographs. There are lots of photographers, right, there are hundreds of photographers now. But you know, when I was a girl, my father was a photographer and he had a selection of cameras and I remember when, in the early 70s, he bought a very expensive camera he was a professional photographer and I remember it being this you know, this thing he had in his room, this very spent it was called a Hasselblad it was a very expensive camera and it was.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know it's like a magic box. Dad's got this really expensive camera. You know we could never touch it. You know we can never hold it. You know sometimes we could never touch it. You know we can never hold it. You know sometimes we could hold his other cameras and he would let, but we could never hold that one. And that kind of idea about the technology being special. That technology is the route to producing the thing, the photograph that he will take, which will be extra special in a sense, has been completely lost in the world of digital photography.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And if we take that idea to how we experience music and music making, we will begin to see where the struggles of musicians lay, because musicians that have been training for years to play the violin at an incredibly high level are flabbergasted by a synthesizer that reproduces a violin. And he once played me this, um, these, this string section that he and and I was blown away. It was incredible. I love string, you know, with strings and and then, yeah, he was like, yeah, I just played on keyboard.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, well, I couldn't tell yeah, oh, it was incredible. I mean, it's incredible, the sounds. You know these, these plugins, these, you know the retro bass sounds, the drum machine, they're incredible. Now, right and, and I was kind of blown away by that and I remember as a child learning the violin and thinking he's never learned the violin- he's never.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:His violins were incredible, his strings were incredible and it's so changed. You know how we produce music. I mean you and I. You're a musician and I'm somebody that has worked with in the world of producing music for over 30 years and it is so changed. It changes all the time and the ordinary music consumer and even music fans they don't necessarily really think about the stuff that we think all the work that goes into it all the work, the hours, the time, the years that pass, yes, the effort, the practice, right.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So this, this element of time spent and time invested is so significant in the lives of musicians. Yes, amen, very, very different. For, you know, it's very, very different when you can make a video on your phone for a second or take a bit, you know like, and so that's why I kind of think that we're living in this strange distortion of the instantaneous, or that what it looks. You know that TikTok looks simple. Actually, lots of TikToks aren't simple at all and the people making them are spending hours making them and that that's a whole new thing in itself, like the short video or the. You know, I mean all of all of these techniques and take time, they take learning and that's slow, it's a slow process.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So we live in a kind of time of instantaneousness, at the same time that we know there's also this need for slowness, there's this need, you know. So time I feel like time is a is very distorted at this moment and, um, that, for me, is a very important part of my teaching and it's very important part of the research that I do. But when I speak to artists and we spend a lot of time talking about time. Time passed, time spent, yeah, time wasted people don't realize.
Jennifer Logue:You know, just being a singer, you know, every morning I wake up, I do my vocal warmups, you know, and it's like if I don't practice every day I fall behind, like it's like I get out of shape really quickly and I'm not actually producing anything, I'm just maintaining. But that's part of the time that goes into eventually recording a song, eventually going into the studio having a performance. Like it's just so much time, and I think that's a great segue into talking about your book. Can music make you sick? So I got to ask what, what initially inspired you to start on this research project?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Well, the research project for me started in about the idea, and the first time I wrote the sentence can music make you sick? Was around 2000. It was around 2013. It was definitely I wrote can music make you sick? In 2000. I wrote that sentence, that question, in 2013. The first time I was I was working on this idea, I was working on trying to produce a paper that was called the production of music is out of control, right, um, and I was trying to. You know, everybody was making music, everyone's making music, everyone's uploading music. You know, there's like streaming was. You know, everything seems that was so in such an accelerated moment of. You know, time was happening so much faster in this production of, and at the same time as this happening, I noticed people being very unwell around me that I felt were unwell. I felt, um, and then, in a short succession, in one year, in that year, three people that I knew died oh sorry two, you know two um from suicide and one um from another, you know know, just died.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:It was just a kind of a heart attack of a really, really young person, but it really made it really. It was a strange moment because I realized immediately, I saw immediately people memorializing the passing of their friends and these musicians on Facebook. I suddenly saw Facebook becoming this place of memorialization and I was like whoa, what is happening here? What, you know what? And I just felt like you know, I mean nobody, nobody was really talking about people's mental health, no, talking about it, and I was like what is going on? I mean, to me it just seemed really obvious that people were in a, in having a having crises. And you know, artists you saw artists having crises and it's just like people are just not. You know, it was like it was like clearly there was a mental health crisis and people add drugs into that. They you know there's sexual abuse in the industry and all these other things, but nobody would say mental health. You know, it was like nobody seemed to be saying it and it seemed to me like you couldn't say anything in the music space that appeared to be negative and it felt like this question can music make you sick? Was a question. And when I started to ask people that question, they were like that's weird. Of course not Music's great. And I was like no, no, I work with a lot of musicians that are not well. And I thought what is my, you know? And I, and I felt like, because I was asking that question, um, and I was getting such a kind of pushback on the question that I felt like no, I'm going to carry on asking this question because this question is obviously destabilizing people and making them a bit angsty. And also, hang on a minute, we really need to talk about what is going on here and I really need to.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And shortly after that, well, actually, um, several years passed, but I but mostly because I was kind of running around trying to get people to to kind of join me in this idea, and you know, I've been talking to different people and Amy Winehouse had died and I was talking to the Amy Winehouse and I was talking to just different people in the industry, and and then, through through somebody at the university, I got introduced to help musicians who previously had been the charity, the the Musicians Benevolent Fund. It was a charity that you may not have heard of. Lots of people hadn't heard of them because they were very much embedded in the classical music. People in popular music didn't know them at all, really, and it was very interesting. And then somebody said, oh, they're rebranding and they're interested in research. And I went along to see them and I said, well, you know, they're interested in research. And I went along to see them and I said, well, you know, I'm really concerned about this and and and um, at the same time I met george musgrave, who is my co-author, dr george musgrave and, and george was really, really interested. He was a rapper and he was really interested in the, in the impact of of competition and how competition felt. And suddenly we were having these really interesting conversations and I was like, whoa, yeah, you know, I'm I'm trying to get money to do this research and anyway. So I raised the money and I asked George to join me in the research and then, you know, we made, we, it was a really good team we had. You know, we had a lot of um, a lot of uh, enthusiasm for our topic in a way. I mean, we, we felt it was a really serious topic and we really wanted to speak to musicians and we really wanted to get this done. So we were very, very much committed to the idea of hearing from.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know, I felt always as a artist manager working in record labels, I always felt that in the music industries which are very complex in themselves, but, you know, when streaming was happening, when the, when we were um with digital copying, all of these things were happening the musicians voices were the last ones to be heard. It was obvious to me. You know, I was like I was always trying to get the musicians' thoughts and feelings across, so that was something that was really part of my working practice. So we were very keen to speak to musicians and we, you know, in some ways now, I think naively and with great enthusiasm we came up with our survey and helped musicians and various other people, helped us promote the survey and we got an incredible response. It was great, it was really staggering. It was like we took a lid off and it was like, and because we were doing the study in the uk, we could not receive, we couldn't take on board the work, the responses coming from the international, international musician.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Okay, I worked in france at the time and I was quite well known in europe and and I had friends in america and loads of people shared the survey and we just got so many responses but in the end we could only count the ones from the United Kingdom and immediately our survey became the biggest survey in the world ever about mental health. It's still the biggest survey ever and we were staggered, like that has never been either of our intentions. We never even thought of that. It was you know. But then people say, do you know, this is the biggest study in the world? And we were like really it wasn't, it wasn't, we didn't want to do the largest study, we want to hear from musicians. But what became really clear is musicians really had a lot to say and really wanted to be heard. So that's how we started. We started with a big survey and then we moved on to um.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:In our survey we we asked the respondents if they wanted or would be willing to speak to us at greater for so that we could conduct qualitative case studies, and we wanted to do that across the board. You know every genre, from classical music to electronic music, um, and we had so many people volunteer to be interviewed that it was very it was really obvious to us how important this was to the musicians. You know it, if we could have spoken to everybody, I would have, yeah, yeah, and George would have too, but the funding would not allow us to speak to everybody. So, you know, in the end we had to speak to a selection of people, but we were very pleased that we were like, and and also there's people from all over the United Kingdom, because in the UK, as you can imagine, um, it's a small island and the music industries are very concentrated in London, so there's a high level of London and South East England bias and we wanted to try to um bring a balance to that so that we could hear, you know, what the issues were for musicians from around the country.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:This was also really important, um, so that's what the first, you know, the the actual research can music make you sick? Part one and part two, which is the work that was sponsored, um by help musicians and public by help musicians. That's what that those two reports are what were the?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:same yeah I'm sorry.
Jennifer Logue:What were some of the most interesting findings from that first survey?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:maybe well gosh, I mean. A very interesting finding was that, regardless of genre, musicians were experiencing mental health issues at a high level. You know, nearly 70% of the musicians we surveyed were suffering from anxiety or depression or had experienced them, and that was regardless of age, regardless of genre, regardless of gender. It was just across the board. It was just such a high level that was so much higher than the general public.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Or you know it was really stark finding you know, not one that we were happy to have found. You know, not one that we were happy to have found, but we were very pleased to be able to report to the industry and to the government that this is what musicians are experiencing.
Jennifer Logue:You know this is really serious and this, this survey, was launched what year was it launched?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:it was 9, 2016, 17 okay.
Jennifer Logue:So I wonder if those numbers have gone up since then in terms of well, we we haven't done.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:We haven't done a uh another follow-up survey since then in the UK, george and I have worked in Denmark and last year we worked in Denmark in 2023, and the survey that we did there produced very similar figures. Ah, okay, yeah, but other people have done you know. So in the UK there's been lots, lots of follow up music and mental health surveys, and they've been done with women. They've been done with people from the global majority. They've been done in queer communities.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:People are still suffering from mental health issues and you know, the pandemic, certainly in the UK, has produced raised the level of discussion around mental health, and mental health as an area of health is at a crisis point here in the United Kingdom. For sure. The thing that was, you know, important for us and interesting in terms of community and thinking about mental health and well-being is that a musician's career is one that other people would look at and say, wow, you're a musician, you're so lucky. That's the career we all want. We want to work in an avenue of life that gives us some autonomy, in which we're able to express ourselves. We would like to. You know, this is the way the industry promotes itself in a way.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know, one of the things that our findings really challenged was this idea that music is just a totally healthy place to be, and, la la la, it really debunked that fantasy. Instead, it produced evidence that people were working incredibly long hours, not having holidays, being separated from their families, separated from their families, living under incredible economic strain, from precarious condition working conditions, and that these things and the inequality of access, the frustration of being unable to get your records heard or get, get a gig or find a manager, all of these things that people have invested, as we said, so much time, so much of themselves. You know that all you know the the thing that one of the things that the survey and the quantitative research produced were these findings that, for musicians, music is absolutely part of central to their identity, to their emotional and psychic selves. It's not something that they seem to be able to separate from their being. And you know whether this is something, in the end, that we are going to need to work on to to make these separations, because maybe this over reliance and over entanglement in this creative work is not, you know, tips the balance for what could be helpful to to not helpful.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:This is becoming a big question. You know our relationship to music and to musical work has changed greatly. You know it has changed greatly. Music was once centralized around community, around church. You know, over time our relationship to music has changed and where. Where we are now in 2024, we live in a very different musical landscape. We relate to and experience music in many, many different ways and the value of music is very hard to quantify.
Jennifer Logue:That is true it varies for different artists at different levels, different use cases. It's just music is everywhere and it's there's. No, no one's exactly the same in terms of value.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yes, or what value means, or how we are going to, how we are going to support the idea of value in music making. Right, it's very, very difficult to come up with measurements, but everybody talks about data, everyone loves, loves some statistics, but it's actually very, very hard to quantify what the value of music is. You know, in 2006, and I was working in the music school at the University of Westminster, I wanted to have music strike. I wanted everybody to turn off the music for 24 hours and not listen to music. And I wanted to do that don't, don't be ridiculous. And I said, oh okay, but I really felt like, you know, people had been able to join me in that, thought they would be able to contemplate what music brings to their lives. But this idea, they were like, oh no, don't be silly.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And in some funny ways I would say that reflects the way in which we take music and music make it so for granted, that we weren't prepared to strike for it. You know we haven't been prepared to for it. You know we haven't been prepared to. You know, and then it was. Then you know, when musicians have been trying to stand up for their rights. I mean, you saw that in America, maybe last. It was it last year when the writers went on strike in Hollywood. Yes, the writers, yeah, and you saw the writers strike, you saw that old school workers collective coming together saying no, right, and it has impact. But for musicians, because the world of musicianship is, on the one hand, a profession and another way of life, and also a profession that's difficult to earmark, it becomes much more difficult for musicians to act collectively in that sense, right yes, because you have musicians making music at different levels, so not everyone's organized or has the ability to organize actors.
Jennifer Logue:We have SAG writers, we have writers guildriters Guild, but I can't really think off the top of my head of a musicians union that's really active across the board we, yeah, we have a musicians union in the UK and they have been.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know they they were again.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I think these are all about histories, you know, and historically, the music musicians union here in the uk was very much embedded in the live music and classical music and wasn't in, you know, wasn't interested so much in pop music and popular music, and so the fragmentation of the music community has really only led to the fragmentation of musicians, voices and and, and that has fed into the devaluing of music as an economic form and, um, you know, as you you were saying earlier, with AI again, you know, this is another thing that we have to think about. So, um, what my work is centric, what I look at in my work and what I'm interested in, and I'm interested in human activities and human beings and, um, how you know, in our psychology, in our health and in the importance of um, music as a form of communication and all of those things. You know, like music is obviously important to me. But I understand now very clearly, you know, that I spend my life immersed in thinking about music and thinking about musicians and thinking about the digital world and thinking about all of these things, that music to individuals.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You can't manage, you can't measure what music means to individuals. In that sense, you know there's no like blowing. You know someone's drunk too much alcohol measure if they were drunk, right or something there someone's intoxicated, but with music, you, you can't separate it out in that way. You're gonna, oh you, you know, and, and you talk to someone and they say, oh yeah, you know, I listen to music, but I I mean it's the same now when I hear people telling me they don't listen to music, anybody, just a podcast, that's interesting a lot now.
Jennifer Logue:I've been finding that a lot too, which is really fascinating. A little scary it's. Um, I feel like music is integral for my own happiness and well-being, is it? It has the ability to change the mood of a room, your outlook. It just changes your vibe as a human, you know. Yeah, I work out. I gotta have a good playlist road trip.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's an interesting thing that people you know, because I have four children and two of my sons in particular listen to a lot of podcasts and they're always telling me oh, have you heard this one, mommy, have you heard this one? And this one's about music and this one's about psychology.
Jennifer Logue:And then I go to listen to them and I'm like, oh, it's a lot of talking, yeah, and this will be a lot of talking too.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I mean, I, I do a podcast, clearly, I host one, exactly, I know. But it's a really interesting thing, isn't it? Because we're you know it's important for us to to communicate the importance of music for us, and now this, this new thing, the podcast, is allowing us to do that. And it's like when radio came and radio, you know, people were afraid when recorded music was going to be played on the radio, right, and so everything gives us an opportunity, but we don't necessarily automatically mean well, what will that mean in terms of you know? So for me, when I think you know, again, it goes back to time, but 24 hours in a day, 12 of those were going to be awake, hopefully on the last of our day, you know, and eight of them, you know.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And when I go for a walk, um, into, you know, my, I used to have two, unfortunately, my, my old dog died recently, so only a few weeks ago. But my day's routine would be up, take the dogs for a walk out in the common, which is like come in the countryside and I don't want to listen to music or a podcast, I want to be in the forest, listening to the trees and the birds and my dogs barking and chasing rabbits and squirrels, but that's the time of day when I don't want my phone on. I don't, I don't want to be talking to anyone, I just want to be like oh, this is my hour in nature today, and then I'll get home or I'll get on the train and you know um, I'll be here in my studio and I'll be listening to music, very present. You know I'll be listening to music, very present. You know I'll be listening to music. I've never been somebody I don't listen to music on headphones traveling anywhere, oh interesting.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, I come from that generation where I put a record on and sit in the room you know, and that's not common.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Now I listen to music and I do listen to it through my computer. I plug it in, but um, I I listen to music when I'm cooking and I listen to music when I'm doing. I used to listen to music a lot and write, but as I'm aging I found it again. I found it even more actually difficult to listen to music and write. It's really interesting. I used to do that all the time, but now um, so the, so, the listening. You know, when I'm listening to a podcast or listening to um. Today, for the first time ever, I downloaded an audiobook my first time, I'll admit that, and I'm going to try and listen to it. But I mean I will listen to. I know I do listen to podcasts, but when I listen to them I'm not walking around, I'm like sitting there, like in my chair.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So I'm finding like the mobility, like obviously my son's like telling me he's listening to a podcast when he's on the, when he's working out and weightlifting or whatever. I'm like, wow, I want to hear what they're saying. Like I'm really like hanging on everyone's word. So I do. I mean, you know, it's not that I don't listen to podcasts, I do, but when I listen I'm not walking and listening, I listen to them. Like recently I started to listen to them in the and I still yeah, I still didn't find that necessarily like I love to listen to music in the car.
Jennifer Logue:Oh yes, I can't listen to podcasts and drive. I can listen to music and drive, but the podcast is a little. I'm not able to focus on the road as much, so it's good that I don't listen to podcasts when I drive, exactly.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So I feel like I need to pay attention. So, yeah, podcast, I'm talking, I need to pay attention. So I think these things are very, very interesting when we come to think about musicians lives and we think about how we use music and how, you know, music is, for me, the most utilitarian of expressive arts. Yeah, because it is mobile. We can take it in the car with us, we can go to the beach with it, we can, as you say, use it to change the mood. You know? Um, I also think, like you know, we use music to also mirror our mute. You know, like when we're sad, we often listen to sad songs.
Jennifer Logue:I'm a sad french playlist for myself because I enjoy it like I just want to stare out the window, you know, at the sad french music playing yeah, I have a playlist that's cool.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I have a playlist that's one of my favorite and it's called being emotional. I just add songs to it all the time, like really, really over the top. I'm like listen to this, it's like, oh my god. But you know so it's not like mood um modulation that we use music for it's not always like we move it, we. We don't necessarily use it to change our mood. Sometimes we use it to sit in our mood, to be with that feeling, right. So in that sense it's just like there's no other expressive art.
Jennifer Logue:I don't think that really works in that way for any of us, you know but yeah, we don't treat musicians like musicians, aren't really being incentivized to keep making it. You know it's really hard to be a musician these days, absolutely.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I mean, this is the thing. This is all my work is persuading people how hard it is. Yeah, I.
Jennifer Logue:I don't think our listeners like the ones who aren't musicians. I don't think they understand the amount of work that goes into being a musician. I don't think my own family understands no I mean this is number one.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I would say that our findings, from all the research we've done, from all the musicians that we've spoken to, all the musicians feel that people do not understand the work that goes into being a musician and all of them feel that they're fat. You know, a lot of them feel like their spouses don't understand their loved ones, their family, their peer. You know they feel misunderstood, they feel mis, they feel underappreciated and they feel that they're, in some senses, they feel they're unrewarded for the investment that they've made. And that's very true and that's very much.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I think these were, you know, these were very clear findings from our research and that idea of what success is, you know, these were very clear findings from our research and that idea of what success is, you know, success in itself was very difficult for musicians. I mean the ones that were successful, that had made a lot of money. They, they knew that they were, you know that they were lucky, that and they, I think the role of luck in musicians. Most musicians were able, most of the people that we interviewed and most of the people that spoke to us were able to articulate an acknowledgement that luck plays such a role in their work, even though they know they've put in the work, they know they've you know they've done this, they've done that, they still know that a bit of a luck doesn't go um amiss. You know it was.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:It could be a very positive and bad luck as equally as good luck you know, we, um, we were speaking when we were speaking to artists in Denmark. We were speaking to very talented, really great, um, uh, new artists and they had just had their record come out just as the pandemic hit and, of course, by the time Covid was over, there were more new artists and it was awful and I really I was like, oh wow, you know, and it's that thing of like just being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being in the right place at the right time, um, and that is very, very difficult in such a hyper competitive industry to to be able to, you know, to be able to take that on board individually, to be able to reflect on it industry, to be able to, you know, to be able to take that on board individually, to be able to reflect on it and to be able to live with it. You know, it really is no understatement to say it's difficult to live as a musician in so many respects, right?
Jennifer Logue:And even if you make it, even like, let's say, your album's a big hit, what happens after that? You have to maintain it and there's constantly people coming up. There's constant competition. Not that it's about competition, it's about, once you have your fan base, you know you play for your fans. But there's so much work in just maintaining your success once you achieve it.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Oh, absolutely, play for your fans, but there's so much work in just maintaining your success once you achieve it. Oh, absolutely. And also there's a difference that new anxieties come in, new demands come in. You know you're touring, you know, I mean, um, so many of the artists that we spoke to that were had been fortunate enough to have a hit were like yeah, then I spent one and a half years playing the same record again, again, again. No one was interested in me having another record. Or then they wanted another record, but they wanted the next record to sound just like the last record. And you know, so, um it the the. You know, problems and conflicts change across the landscape of a career, a professional career in music, and just getting to be a professional musician and being able to say, oh, you know, I'm sustaining my, the major part of my life through my musical work. A very, very, very small portion of people can do that nowadays how?
Jennifer Logue:what is the percentage? Do you think of people well, actually sustained?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:it's completely we don't know we don't know.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, we don't know the numbers, we don't. You know people, you know people say different things, but um, it's very hard, I I haven't seen any data that. I've gone. Yeah, I, I 100 believe that. Or um, we had, um, uh, a report produced by um. Who produced it? Now, it might have been the help musicians musicians union. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of who produced it. Now it might have been the help musicians musicians union. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of who produced it, but it was um, they called it the music census and they it was. It was like a musician's career lasted about five years and that their average income, and this is in the uk.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Their average income was about 20 000 pounds a year which is below the national average right and it was really low.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:It was really stark and people just brushed that. You know that it came out, there was some discussion about it, then people stopped talking about it and it was really interesting. And I think that that's one of the things that the industry does doesn't want to talk about the bad news things. And also, obviously, in universities, we, you know, I wanted to discuss it. I sent it around, I sent the report around to a lot of people and they were like, yeah, that's really that's not great, is it? And no one really wanted to talk about it.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And this is one of the things that I think, um, you know, it doesn't help when we don't talk about these things. It doesn't help when you know we, we set, you know it, we set unrealistic, we give musicians unrealistic expectations about what a career in music looks like. And I'm a realist, if nothing else, I'm a pragmatic realist and I want people to live better lives and because of that, I believe that the best thing to do is to face the facts. So I would much prefer that we had a much more realistic. You know, it's the same with sport you can be fantastically good at a sport. But you will not be, you know, the best basketball player in the, in the league or the baseball or in the football league in the uk. You won't be the greatest gymnast, you won't be sim Simone Biles or you know, you've got.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:We've got to be more realistic in the way that we equip young people for sure about these futures. Not, you know, everybody wants to be a TikTok influencer or everyone was like well, not everybody will be. You can't have those kinds of spaces and think everybody can make a living. That isn't realistic. So we've got to be able to enjoy. What is really true is that making music is enjoyable.
Jennifer Logue:Oh yes, it is Love it.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And it's like all of those things. People have to be able to have space to do that. But in doing that they have to also understand that, you know, they may well be better off having a day job. Yes, maybe not a day job that has to do with music, just a day job. They can go and do their job and then they can do the music, and they can. You know, when I was a kid, my, my parents had some friends in France that were, you know, french jazz musicians, and we used to go and see them play in the summer. They would be booked in the festivals, and the guy that played guitar in the band, he was a very good jazz guitarist, he was a scientist in the day.
Jennifer Logue:Yes, yeah.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And every member of the band had some what my parents, who were a bit arty, thought were weird jobs.
Jennifer Logue:You know that's so funny my neurologist, who's like one of the top neurologists for, um, I have epilepsy but he he actually plays like. He played at like the concert level I think it's upright bass and he had the choice between music school and, you know, going to med school and he wanted to. He went the med school route, obviously, but, uh, I just find it so impressive. I meet so many people who are really high up in their careers, who are incredible musicians, and it's a passion and that's wonderful.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know, that is wonderful and that is great, and and I I think that it's very important that we strive to improve the working conditions of music musicians now, but that we also take on board that the music economy has vastly changed and we have to be more realistic in the way that we educate and bring and teach and talk to young musicians.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know, it's not this is not pop stars, the idols. This is not a big game show. This is people's real lives, right, and not only that, the people that work in these creative industries. They come to the. You know, lots of them come into these industries because they love that, this art form, whether it's photography, publishing, writing, novel writing, podcasting, filmmaking, whatever people are drawn to careers of things they love, and they come into the and then, because they love these careers, they work in highly exploitative situations, they have bad contracts, they and we have to improve, you know, in a really like old school way, workers rights. Musicians are workers and they need workers rights and they need some protection. And the deregulation of the creative industries and and like the zero regulation of tech industries, has led to a real crisis for the people that work in these spaces, which is manifested in poor mental health and well-being, absolutely, and um and all kinds of things, you know, and it is beholden on us to do something about that. What?
Jennifer Logue:do you think um people in power in the music industry? What steps could be taken now to improve the mental health of musicians and the working conditions?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:right. All the major record labels and music companies, publishers, all of them have mental health and wellbeing charters now.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:All of them right? I mean, I would say, well, certainly here in the UK they all do and, yeah, maybe not so everywhere, but they certainly do in the UK. I think the UK is possibly leading the field and that's possibly because our research started here and it made a noise here. So people are looking at and providing artists with um well-being, mental health support when they're signed to labels um. There are more charities involved in this field. There are peer support groups, many different kinds of very good peer support groups that are available that musicians can be involved in. We have a charity here help musicians developed a charity called music minds matter. That is very doesn't has a lot of education. The musicians union now has a music, a mental health and well-being charter and help um support and um giving, giving people um pointers, what can um. But I think there is still a long way to go in terms of the regulation of workspaces. You know we there's, there is work happening across the board in every, in live, in recording, whatever, but there is still.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:There's a lot of talk, there's a lot of discussion, certainly here in the uk. It's a big, it's a big um. It's a big issue that people are appearing to take seriously in the music managers forum. They are taking it seriously. But what can be done? How can we make sure that um musicians are supported and paid for their work? I mean because, because music income is fragmented in itself, royalties come from different spaces. That is also difficult to regulate, right? Um?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know, we had recommended in our early work, um george and I, and we recommend it in the book, that governments develop um a basic income, for example, and they're trialing that idea in Ireland. Ireland has traditionally, certainly for the last 20 years, been very supportive of the artist creative community, but there will never be a blanket support for all people that want to be musicians, right? So there has to be ways of thinking about how we you know, one of the things, for example, in the live industry is talking about how many, how many dates would you which should you um work in a row? What would, how many rest days? Thinking differently for the first time about what, what that would mean, just like we're now thinking differently about what are the carbon implications of touring life? Right, I mean the sustainability. There's a lot of things that group together in in what I call living better music lives.
Jennifer Logue:Yes, Now on that subject. Now, what can musicians do for themselves to take charge of their mental health in the world that we're living in now?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Right. Well, this is a really those kind of simple things, right? Those simple things that a lot of musicians know, a lot of people know, and there are loads of resources on Instagram, tiktok, youtube, everywhere you know take care of yourself, eat well, be healthy All of these things, right, I think those things are not unknown to musicians, right? The things that? So I think that is a very difficult question. It's like, I think, that when you're being a reflective practitioner, when you're thinking about what you're doing, you're thinking about the work that you're doing. What are you producing? Why are you producing it? How do you expect to promote it? Is that to? I generally find that musicians are very, very um, the music, and certainly the musicians we interviewed, they really think about this a lot. So I don't want to patronize anyone by saying I've thought about that, because I think they really do think a lot about it, but, um, in terms of you, you have to create healthy working structures for yourself you cannot you?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:you know musicians have not been able to change what's what's the streaming industry has designated. It will pay the recorded music industry that it will pay you right, right. It's been very hard for musicians to set a basic rate to perform live at a gig. You know, I don't know what it's like in America, but here musicians often play for nothing, for free. Oh yeah.
Jennifer Logue:You have the privilege of playing for an audience.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah. So the thing is that when we say what can musicians do for themselves, one of my concerns about that is that we're putting back on musicians full responsibility for the situation they're in, and they didn't make this situation right so I think they. Yeah, I think. I think accepting that is also really key. It's like not going. What you know I need to. You know it's the. The problem is in me, the problem is not in you, that you have to be aware that this is a structural issue.
Jennifer Logue:Yeah. What do you say to young musicians coming into the industry now? What advice do you have for them to prepare themselves to live a more balanced life, given the world we live in right now?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Right? Well, I talk to young musicians all the time and you know, the thing that I'd say to them is that take their time, right? I think that one of the things that we see or we have seen you know, we've seen 14 year old Billie Eilish, yeah, which means if you're 16, you're too old. She was 14 or 18. You're too old, right? Again, this very, this very interesting way that we see youth being fetishized in the industry. But we've also had some very good examples recently of artists taking their time and their careers developing over time. So I say to people take your time and enjoy the journey.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Yeah, you are in, you are not in a rush. You know tomorrow will cut. You are not in a rush, you know you take your time. Um, you know, do things, try things out, but know, if you don't like it to say no, right, know how to say no, know how to say no, don't, don't, so don't listen. It's very hard the things for young musicians. They'll have a lot of people talking at them. If they get attention, they get a lot of people talking at them, and that is very difficult. So, make community is very important, make sure that you have good friends, and these things are really, you know, important and it's very interesting to hear how musicians that have come out of a scene and have friends have been able to be supported by their friends and learn from their friends.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:And you know, know, I think this idea of the solo musician in the middle of nowhere, flying in from you know, out of space, to number one in billboard, uh, but by and large, that's nonsense, um, but also very unhelpful. But I think that for young musicians, just to be aware, be aware, this can be a long journey. You know, if need be, have a day job. Don't give up your day job, really don't. Don't worry. You know you can't do it all. No one can do it all. Right, find a team, find people to work with that you trust and that can support you, but you've got to be able to also, you know, don't, um, don't sign contracts that you will regret oh my gosh.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:The worst thing is when I meet young people that have signed I meet so many young people that have already signed, got so many young people that have already signed, got a contract. I'm like, what do you do that for? Um, don't do that, um, yeah, don't. I always say to young people do not sign a contract unless that contract is delivering money to you, unless that person. You know the thing.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:You know it's very difficult for to to find a manager. Then you want to work with a manager. Then you will have to sign a contract because a manager, if you're not, if you're not making a living, that manager is not earning and they will expect you. So some of these things are truisms of the industry. You know, good managers don't work for free. They can't right. So you've got to be able to compromise, but you've also got to be able to say no. But you've got to take care of yourself. And you know, in some senses I would say that's that's true of all genders, but for women it's often. You know, there's a can often be different pressures. That can be difficult and, yeah, be prepared for a long journey and be prepared for the things don't happen instantaneously and knockbacks are hard but you can get up. You know, I think this, I you know this idea of resilience, this idea, you're just being more realistic, you know.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I mean, interestingly, an artist that I know, very talented, incredible artist, has incredible management, very high level management, and he got signed very, very young and he's never had a day job. Recently he got a day job and he's actually really enjoying it. And you know he's made several albums and he's been on tour and this has happened. He had a really bad time in covid and, and you know, I keep saying to me you're not done. You know you're super talented, you've got incredible voice, you write great songs. It's not over, but you know, just feeling like everything wasn't relying on this song or that, yes, that pressure, yeah, exactly just having another springboard, another place, you go.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I'm just having a bit of a normal life a normal life, and it can be.
Jennifer Logue:I don't think people can appreciate that. The ones who have the normal nine to five there's something really nice about that too like to have that stability, to have those paid vacation days like the musicians.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Don't get that, you know sick days yeah there's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing, you know, um, yeah, I think it's really. It's really important, and I am not so convinced that streaming will ever produce the kind of what I call middle-class musicians that existed in the past, that were signed to indie labels and could earn a lot decent money and they could live in a small place or whatever. Those days are over, um, and you know if, if your income is earned through touring, then you're going to have to be prepared to tour a lot, because that's where your income is running, and you know, um, I think that the most important message to a young artist is that there is no way that you are not going to have to work unbelievably hard for whatever it is that you may get. Yes, but you have to find some balance in your life and you have to understand that we all compromise, everybody compromises and everybody. That that's life, you know, and it this isn't a dream, and very, very few people will be Taylor Swift or you know these huge blockbuster.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:We have these very exaggerated economies in the music sphere right now, and certain genres have really suffered. I think, um, and it's very difficult to understand, to see how you know if things aren't going to go backwards, so we have to. We have to accept what we've got here. So you know, number one surround yourself with good friends, enjoy making music, take your time. Don't sign contracts that are put in front of you unless someone's giving you some proper money. Get legal advice, yes, and remember to take care of yourself. You know so important and you know so important, and you are not the system you didn't invent how streaming happened or any of those things you really didn't. You know and you know. Yeah, I think that's my best advice.
Jennifer Logue:What's next for you, Sally?
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Well, what's next for you? Sally well, what's next for me? I never know. I mean, what's next for me is I'm two weeks away from starting the new semester at uni, so the new students will arrive. Um, I'm working, you know, I'm I'm, I've got ideas and things that I'm looking at, working on.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I'm very interested in looking at the mid-career lives of female musicians and how they are faring in this world. And there's so many things, there's so many things you know, I'm super interested in, yeah, looking at what the realities of the future music lives will be and hoping that we can continue to promote the value of music to everyone. Yes, that's like you know, know, playing music, being part of music communities, exchanging music, dancing, having fun. This is all. These are all the things that are important. And caring for people.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I think music yeah, I think music has a lot of value to put will play a lot of a role in health of the general public in the future. That's one of the things that I think that we'll we will find that music will become, um, a place, you know, I mean music's always been a place of healing. Sorry, my computer's about to crash. I thought it was plugged in, sorry, um, but I definitely think that we're going to discover, and the neuroscience are going to discover, how important music and music all um experiences are for our, for the health you know. So I I see the kind of music as medicine, as being a big area for the.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I don't know what's going on here. Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, that's something I'm very interested in and one of the areas that I'll be looking at.
Jennifer Logue:Oh, very cool. I just know. I think all of us can relate to this. After you come back from a concert, just feel like you're on cloud nine. I don't know. This like euphoria, the connection with other bands, with the music, with the musicians, live music.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:I think that's really. I think that's really. You know, we've seen that you know. Music therapy, music, working with people with dementia, music with autistic. I have a disabled niece, very disabled, but she loves music and she comes completely alive when she's listening to music and she dances, but she's not verbal, she's a very limited in her verbal capacity but she is singing, you know like she's doing, and it's incredible when you see, you know, since she was a little baby and and so I think you know this is a very exciting time because, with neuroscience and some of the things that we're able to look at now and see that we didn't know before, you know, as a complementary medicine, we may find that music becomes something that people are, um, you know, going to do to to feel better and to help their minds, you know.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:So, yeah, music will always be with us. Yes, always.
Jennifer Logue:Making life better yeah.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:We are music producing beings. There is nowhere that there's a human and there is no music if a prison, to chain gangs, to slavery, to every. You know all our darkest spaces. We have always had music with us, and and that that we should remember is the power of music. It is incredibly powerful force I got chills.
Jennifer Logue:Just there s, Sally. Thank you so much, so much for being on Creative Space. This conversation was so enlightening. Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Logue:So, for those of you tuning in, if you enjoyed this episode, I highly recommend checking out Dr Gross's book Can Music Make you Sick, to dive even deeper into the mental health challenges faced by musicians. And don't forget to subscribe to Creative Space so you never miss an episode. I'd love to hear your thoughts on today's discussion. Feel free to reach out on social media at Jennifer Logue or leave a review for Creative Space on Apple Podcasts to share what you found most impactful. Thank you again for joining us on Creative Space. Keep creating, keep dreaming and remember your wellbeing matters just as much as your art. So until next time, I'm Jennifer Logue and you've been listening to Creative Space.
Dr. Sally Anne Gross:Thank you.