Creative Space with Jennifer Logue

Avi Wisnia On Music, Creativity, and 'How Saba Kept Singing' (Emmy-Nominated Documentary)

• Jennifer Logue

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In this special replay of "Creative Space," we revisit one of our most powerful conversations, featuring singer-songwriter Avi Wisnia. Avi was the very first guest on "Creative Space," and his journey has inspired so many of us.

In this episode, Avi and I discuss:

  • His early passion for music and piano lessons at age five
  • The making of "How Saba Kept Singing," an Emmy-nominated documentary featuring Avi and his Holocaust survivor grandfather
  • How performing with his grandfather in Poland rekindled his love for music
  • The profound impact of community and collaboration in nurturing creativity
  • Coping with personal loss and finding joy in creativity again

At the time of recording, "Creative Space" was in its early days (no lighting, no makeup, bare backdrop), but Avi’s story was so moving that it helped shape what the podcast has grown into today.

Tune in for a heartfelt conversation about music, resilience, and the healing power of art. Don’t miss "How Saba Kept Singing" as it heads into the Emmys next week!

For more information on Avi, visit: aviwisnia.com.

To sign up for the weekly Creative Space newsletter, visit: http://eepurl.com/h8SJ9b.

To become a patron of the Creative Space podcast, visit: https://bit.ly/3ECD2Kr.


SHOW NOTES:
0:00 — Introduction 
2:00 — Reflecting on the early days of Creative Space and its growth
3:30 — Avi Wisnia’s early passion for music and first piano lessons
5:50 — Influence of classic songwriters like Billy Joel, Elton John, and Carole King
8:20 — Discussing How Saba Kept Singing and the inspiration behind it
12:00 — Creativity and playfulness: Where Avi believes creativity comes from
15:30 — The power of collaboration and community in nurturing creativity
19:00 — Avi’s songwriting process: Music first, lyrics later
23:10 — Catching Leaves: The inspiration behind the title track
27:00 — Coping with grief and finding his way back to music after losing his brother
31:00 — The impact of performing with his grandfather, David Wisnia
36:00 — The making of How Saba Kept Singing and the significance of music in his grandfather's life
41:00 — Conclusion and where to find Avi’s music and How Saba Kept Singing

Jennifer Logue:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Creative Space, a podcast where we explore, learn and grow in creativity together. I'm your host, jennifer Logue, and as we gear up for Season 3, yes, season three, I can't believe it myself which is launching on Sunday, october 20th, we will be revisiting the most popular episodes from the last two seasons of Creative Space, and today's guest holds a very special place in Creative Space history, avi Wisnia, who was my very first guest on the show. Avi is an incredible singer-songwriter who has performed worldwide and shared stages with legends like the Roots and Annie DeFranco. He was also recently featured in the powerful documentary how Saba Kept Singing alongside his grandfather, a Holocaust survivor the film which is nominated, by the way, for an Emmy next week. So you'll have to tune in and cheer them on. It's a moving tribute to family resilience and the healing power of music. When I first recorded this episode, the podcast was still in its early days and, to be honest, I didn't even plan on it being a video podcast at the time, and my walls were bare, I didn't have proper lighting and I don't even think I was wearing makeup. But that's okay, Because the conversation with Avi was so powerful so powerful that it marked the beginning of what Creative Space has grown into today, which is an incredible platform for artists and creatives from all backgrounds to share their journeys and thoughts on creativity.

Jennifer Logue:

I am thrilled to have the chance to revisit this captivating interview. In this episode, avi and I cover discovering his passion for music at a young age. The making of the Emmy nominated. How Saba Kept Singing and Performing with His Grandfather in Poland. How music became a way for his grandfather to process trauma and share his story. The ups and downs of Avi's own creative journey, including dealing with loss and grief after losing his brother. The power of community and collaboration in nurturing creativity. I hope you find Avi's story as inspiring as I did when we first recorded it.

Jennifer Logue:

So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Avi Wisnia. Welcome to Creative Space, a podcast where we learn and grow in creativity together. For today's episode, we have the pleasure of speaking with singer-songwriter Avi Wisnia. He's performed around the world in venues like the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City and the Kennedy Center in DC, playing alongside artists like the Roots and Ani DiFranco. He was recently featured in a documentary executive produced by Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton alongside his late grandfather David, his Saba, how Saba Kept Singing, his Saba, how Saba kept singing. And Avi just has a beautiful creative life and I'm so excited to chat with him as my first actual official interview for Creative Space Avi Welcome.

Avi Wisnia:

I'm honored. Congratulations on kickstarting the podcast and thanks for that great introduction. Happy to be with you.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh my gosh, this is so fun, Avi. We've known each other for like 10 years. Have we figured out the mystery of how we actually met?

Avi Wisnia:

No, I was looking back and I know that we performed together at the Tin Angel in Philly in 2014. So we've obviously go back further than that. Yeah, yeah, 10 years is it's kind of wild, but I think it must have been something with your involvement in Rock on Philly, I feel like is maybe where we first met, but I feel like I always, you know, like our circles were always circling each other, so it was like bound to, we were bound to meet eventually.

Jennifer Logue:

Especially with this similar trajectory from New York to Philly, you know.

Avi Wisnia:

Completely, completely yeah.

Jennifer Logue:

That too. But yes, and it's been such a joy following your creative journey and all the magical roads it's taken you down, seriously, really magical.

Avi Wisnia:

Some expected, some unexpected, you know.

Jennifer Logue:

That's what makes it magical. I want to start at the very beginning, because this podcast we're exploring creativity from all angles and exploring artists' creative journeys and your experience with creativity. When did you first discover your love for music?

Avi Wisnia:

when did you first discover your love for music? Well, there is a story that gets told around the Wisnia household that I can't remember because I was, I guess, two or three years old or even younger than that. But my parents told me that from the moment like I could I had the the hand-eye coordination to hold chopsticks, that I would kind of like go around and drum on everything you know, just like making rhythms with drumsticks, just kind of like coming up with rhythm and making music just with whatever was around, and that I was going to the keyboard and kind of, you know, fooling around with the keys and really trying to make out melodies from as early as I could stand. So I don't have a lot of memories of those kind of early days, but I can't think of a time where I wasn't playing piano and making music. So I know it started early. It's something I was really drawn to and I think the thing that really started me of knowing how to make music for myself was when I started taking piano lessons at five years old.

Jennifer Logue:

Five years old. Wow, you're such an incredible pianist, yeah, and musician, songwriter, and you recently got Piano Player of the Year Award, I think.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, From the Delaware Valley Public Media Awards that awards the musicians. It's local musicians and industry people awarding the local music scene. So that felt I mean obviously it was a great honor and felt really good because it was coming from my peers and from the community. But also to be named, you know, best keyboard player, because I've been playing since I was five.

Avi Wisnia:

It just felt so validating, Like you know I've been playing for a long time and I've been working on my craft and finding my voice on piano and it's what I feel most comfortable writing with and creating with. So to kind of be recognized for that felt, you know, just really it was a really special award to win.

Jennifer Logue:

For sure Much deserved, and you know who inspired you back in those early days as a musician and who inspired you back in those early days as a musician?

Avi Wisnia:

Well, I remember being really drawn to a lot of classic songwriters like Billy Joel and Elton John and Stevie Wonder, carole King, and I think, looking back on it, I was always drawn to a really good melody, like a really good hook, something that I could sing along to or harmonize with, like that's what really, that's what really drew me in. And, of course, I was listening to the radio and Debbie Gibson and I was obsessed with this band. I don't know if you know them, they're called the Jets. If you remember, in the 80s there was this like group of I think they were Hawaiian brothers and sisters oh my God I watched, or maybe they had a concert in Hawaii that I used to watch all the time. Oh my gosh, but that kind of. Do you know the Jets?

Jennifer Logue:

I don't, but now I'm going to have to go on a YouTube dive.

Avi Wisnia:

Go back they definitely have a best of album and you'll know there are definitely some radio hits in there. But it's kind of like that accessibility, that music had something you could really sing along with and sink your teeth into. But then there was also the real musicianship of those songwriters that I mentioned. That made it not just a fun song to Ben Folds, because he would do these things with the piano. That was pop and accessible, but there was like a little bit of punk with it. You know he would like throw his bench at the piano or he would incorporate classical music and kind of Scott Joplin stuff into his piano, just really turning on its head. What I thought of was a typical singer-songwriter who used the piano, and sometimes that's what you need to open up your own creativity. You need somebody to show you the way right. What is possible, that something different is possible and that allows you to create something different.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, and it's so incredible when artists use their art in a way where they're able to reflect the entirety of their life, their experience, like their influences, in unique ways, and that's just. That is like.

Avi Wisnia:

you know, that's what we all reach for, right the combination and the confluence of our influences, like we don't come out of a black hole, we don't create something from nothing, we create something from everything, and so we are the combination of all the influences, everyone who we listen to, every piece of art that you look at, every record that you listen to, you know the people in your life, the people that you love, the people that you love, the people that you hate, everyone that talks to you.

Avi Wisnia:

You take all that in and you filter it and you channel it and it comes out in this unique combination that's only you, that's only your voice, but it's filtered with all these people. You know I have a song called Something New. That's totally about that, because I was having this songwriter's block about, you know, putting out who. I ended up incorporating little bits and pieces of a lot of musicians that had influenced me and it kind of became a tribute to them and through their influence I was able to write this song, literally called Something New, but to create something new out of that and you pay tribute to the people that came before you, but you find a way to make it unique.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, and take your own experiences and, being honest, like that I can't think of. As an artist, I myself feel that Like who am I? We'll talk about this later. But you know, when you, especially when you have a hiatus from writing for a while, that insecurity, that like kind of festers insecurity, that like kind of festers.

Avi Wisnia:

There's always doubt and self-reflection and it's yeah, it's a twisty, winding road we lead being a creative people.

Jennifer Logue:

Yes, and then we fight through it. There's a light at the end of the tunnel that other people latch onto and relate to. Like that song is so relatable and, like you know, the world needs that, people need that.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, and you have to fight through it, because the thing that I realized was the alternative to fighting through it is you stop, you don't create, you don't put anything out, you retreat. And I think you know when, when you're a creative person, when you know it's your passion, you, you, you feel it, you feel like that I have to put something out into the world. I just feel that drive, and that's kind of what happened with the song. I was like I have to find a way to just put something out because, yes, there are all these great people that came before me, but I want to participate in that, I want to be a voice in that conversation. I think I do have something to say, and sometimes the only way to find it is to start putting stuff out there and see if it feels right or not, and then you change and you mold with it. But you've got to just put it out there to start.

Jennifer Logue:

To even start. For sure, this is a very open-ended question, but this is creative space, so I'll be. How would you define creativity?

Avi Wisnia:

well, I think creativity is making something that doesn't exist. You know, know, and it's not, again, not creating something out of nothing. It's creating something out of everything, but creativity is really that struggle to create something that doesn't exist before and that's through your filter, or even if you're copying something, it can't be an exact copy.

Jennifer Logue:

Like a cover song.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, a cover song even if you're a cover band and you're trying to play it exactly the same way that somebody else did, it will never be exactly the same because it's always filtered through you and you're not that other person and something certainly I mean. I love doing covers of people's songs and one of the most fun things for me is taking it and reinterpreting it in a totally different way. You know, do a jazzy version of the Cure or a swanky lounge version of TLC's no Scrubs.

Avi Wisnia:

Right, right right, or a swanky lounge version of TLC is no scrubs, you know, because it's so fun. You're also playing with expectations, but there, you know, there are such wonderful pieces of art out there that sometimes it's it's cool to play with that, Something that's kind of already already fully formed. But you know, and I, when I think of the word creativity, I just think of playfulness, Like, creativity is the ability to play and have fun, and that's a lot of what I associate with making music is playing with other people and bouncing ideas off of each other, and you always find something that didn't exist before. When you do that, you know jamming, just getting in a room and making up songs or playing other people's songs. You know that inspiration, just that fun. It's having fun and again, making something new.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh my gosh, that's the best place for it to come from. It's just the joy of creativity. I feel like the best things come out of that.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, creativity for me is joy and it should be joyful Even if it's something painful. There's some joy in that.

Jennifer Logue:

For sure, especially when you're able to take something painful and turn it into something beautiful that other people can relate to and get them through their own experiences, you know, that are similarly painful.

Avi Wisnia:

A hundred percent.

Jennifer Logue:

Where do you think creativity comes from? Creativity comes from.

Avi Wisnia:

That's. Where does it come from, you know? Uh, well, we could talk about, um, the existence of God or not, but there is something. There is something and my dad's a rabbi. I come from a long line of clergy, right, so there's definitely Judaism has something to say about that, I'm sure, but there's something transcendent about it and I would I mean, you know, use the word, I would even use the word divine, even though that might mean different things to different people.

Avi Wisnia:

But you know, I just think about another song I wrote, called Rabbit Hole, and this was back in my college days, before I was performing out. So this is a song I still perform. It's on my albums, but I had started writing it a long time before I was performing, and I just remember it was one night. There was nothing special about this night, but I just had these ideas for these lines and I kept going to bed, getting in bed, getting ready to go to sleep, and then I would like jump up because I would. Another line, another lyric would come to me and I would write it down. I'd be like, okay, I got that out of my system, I'll go back to bed, and then another line would come. So it was almost like that, something divine, right? Yeah, it was almost like am I doing this, you know?

Jennifer Logue:

I dreamt a song once, like I woke up and I had this chorus in my head, and it was a good chorus.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, and I'm like all the next day at work.

Jennifer Logue:

I'm like oh my god, like I gotta record this like right now but it's like you write it down, oh we recorded it. Okay it's out. Nothing left to say um, but it it's.

Avi Wisnia:

I'm just like I didn't do that, yeah sometimes you're like how can I take credit for that?

Avi Wisnia:

but right it is you. You know wherever it comes from. Then there are some songs where you really have to sit down and do the work and make a very conscious effort to figure out these chords, or I've been this story going on in my head. How do I write it down? Some things take a little more time than others. But yeah, I think that ability to create is I can't think of any other word for it other than divine. It's just something outside of us or filtered through us that we create something.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, I like to think of it as co-creating with the divine. We don't do it by ourselves, but we do have to make the choice to obey and follow it.

Avi Wisnia:

Right, You've got to be open. Right, You've got to be, open to receiving that inspiration wherever it comes from.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, I got chills. I got chills. So let's get back to songwriting. What's your process like? Do you have a typical process when you're writing a song? We talked about a few ways in earlier bed to write.

Avi Wisnia:

You know you're, you're onto something that's something special, but, um, I don't have a typical process, Um, but most usually when I'm writing, it's the music comes first. For me, some people lead with lyrics or uh, um, or a story or an idea. For me it's usually the music and a melody, so sometimes there'll be a song.

Jennifer Logue:

Vocal melody or piano melody? Do you hear like a voice or do you hear piano?

Avi Wisnia:

That's a good question. I think it's almost like I hear just a line, and I usually play it out on the piano.

Jennifer Logue:

Okay.

Avi Wisnia:

And then on. Actually a lot of times what happens is I'll start singing gibberish over it and just like I'm hearing syllables, you know. And then from those syllables, what do those syllables sound like, you know? Oh, it sounds like you know this kind of phrase with actual words to it. But very often I'll just sing gibberish and just see what comes out, and that sometimes will give me a guidepost of like, where do the notes go? What kind of feeling is it? I usually operate from the feeling. What kind of feeling is it? I usually operate from the feeling. What kind of feeling is this song giving me?

Avi Wisnia:

And then sometimes it's not until weeks or months later where the story settles into place or the, the, the actual words fall into place, Like oh, this is what the song is about, or this is what I want to evoke in actual English and not gibberish.

Jennifer Logue:

This is like blah blah, blah, Number two on my phone.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah yeah. Sometimes that's what the sometimes that's what it is. It's just totally unintelligible. You know, maybe one day I'll actually write a whole song of gibberish that might. You know. That would be fun. The, the gibberish hasn't stuck yet you know.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh my gosh, just like an album of everyone's like song, like notes on their app on their iPhones.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, I'm sure there are some gems and a whole lot of a whole lot of trash. There's a whole lot of trash Also. That should not sound like a thing. There are some. There are some gems that we discard too, or at least we don't give them the credit yet.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, Maybe they just had to come to Philadelphia Song Circle. Philly Song Circle.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, that's what we do. We polish those gems.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, that's so cool.

Avi Wisnia:

That's another thing that's given me inspiration is this song circle that I created with my friend, aaron Nathans, where we, for nine years now, we've been bringing songs to each other and we've gathered our songwriter community. It started as just a group of us in my living room and we slowly got more friends and word of mouth and now we have over 400 members that come and participate and that are connected to us through Facebook, and people come from all over, you know, all over the area, and once a month we get together and we workshop songs in progress. So we actually get to, you know, put these ideas that are not finished, that are not complete, but we get to workshop them with our peers and with other people that understand the creative process, and a lot of my most recent songs were completed that way or at least were able to evolve because of feedback that I got from my friends and these people that I trust in this community.

Jennifer Logue:

I have to say that my favorite songs that I've done have been collaborations. Yeah, like I'll come with something, but then when you have someone else working with you, it's just a completely different creation and just it opens up so many more possibilities and everyone brings something different to the table that you couldn't have done all on your own, and there's just something so magical and special about that.

Avi Wisnia:

Like Sometimes it's good to get out of your own head and you, you need somebody else to help you do that right.

Jennifer Logue:

yes, and to bring it back to joy. You know, I think it's the joy is easier to channel when you're with your collaborators and your friends and stuff, you know yeah, on your own left her own devices for too long right um, that's true, that's true.

Avi Wisnia:

You know, when you're left to your own devices, sometimes you can bring yourself down, or you, you stop yourself from, you start to doubt yourself. All those things creep in right, and that's what other people can do. Can um can help pull us back out of that and keep us going.

Jennifer Logue:

We all need each other.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah so.

Avi Wisnia:

Very true, making music is definitely a community endeavor.

Jennifer Logue:

Now segueing a bit to your new album Catching Leaves. So it opens the title track. The title track, catching leaves, opens with these lyrics. I spent the afternoon trying to catch leaves before they fell on the ground, couldn't predict where they'd go in the breeze, got tired of chasing them down. And then, at the end of the song you sing, sat on a bench and one fell on my knee like and when and when I heard that, I was like oh man, I was like that is life. That is also the creative process sometimes. What was the inspiration for you with that song?

Avi Wisnia:

Well, quite literally, I was um, I was actually trying to bring a song to my songwriters group and trying to come up with one and I would go to this park near my house in South Philly. It's Palumbo Park, this cute little pocket park next to the Fleischer Art Building, and it has this beautiful colorful autumn mural painted on it and it was like a beautiful fall day and I was sitting on a bench and I was literally just watching the leaves and taking in nature and I find a lot of inspiration from nature and the natural world in general. That works its way into my music. You know, and I saw this, this pile of leaves, you know, kick up with the wind and swirl around in this beautiful chaos and I said I want to write a song that sounds, the way that that looks, and so I was literally writing about the leaves. But it's actually the song is very much for me about.

Avi Wisnia:

It is about finding inspiration and trying to grab it, trying to chase it, and sometimes that's, you know, like an impossible feat. Sometimes you have to wait for inspiration to come to you, and that's what happened to me sitting on that bench that leaf falling on my knee. At the end is inspiration finally coming to me? You know, sometimes the things that we want, we can run ourselves ragged by chasing them down, but it's really not until we stop and take a breath and take stock of where we are and be present that life also happens and realizations can happen. Creativity can happen. Sometimes we're rushing around too much, but back to Catching Leaves.

Jennifer Logue:

It's been 10 years since your last full-length release, so do you want to talk about that? A little bit Like what happened in that time.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, I mean a part of relating to taking a pause and taking a moment right and needing to find your place and find your way back to creativity and the things you love. I was dealing with a lot of grief and a lot of loss in my family and I really I don't think I realized it, for it took me a while to realize it that what I needed was to take a step back. I lost my brother, who was 33 at the time. He's a little older than me, and we were really close. I grew up, we've always been close. In fact he was the first person I ever really made music with. He's the one that kind of taught me how to make music with people. We would jam all the time and he would always encourage me to play music with him and he introduced me to so many musical artists that I loved and it influenced my musical taste and so we were very close.

Avi Wisnia:

And when I lost him there was just this big hole in my life and I felt very lost. And because making music I always associated with him, it was weird to think about making music without him around anymore. And you know, grief is not linear. There are ups and downs and you know like it's not a straight trajectory down or up, you just have to go day by day and see how it goes. And, as I said, it took me a while to realize just how lost I was and that I actually needed to take a step back from music because it wasn't bringing me joy anymore, and especially that process of creating music and recording. You really have to focus and you really have to want it and know what you're going for, and I didn't. I was really lost and I really had to take care of myself first and reevaluate what brought me joy and try and find a way back to it.

Jennifer Logue:

Your heart needed to heal.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, you know, yeah, and I didn't realize that, but I needed that time. And sometimes that is taking a step away from just to get perspective, from just to get perspective. And then there's also something that I tend to do, which I don't know if other people do this too, but sometimes you take a step back and you're with yourself just for too long and then you get kind of stuck there.

Jennifer Logue:

I can relate to that Avi.

Avi Wisnia:

Right, taking a step away is good, but you can also get stuck there. Oh yeah.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah.

Avi Wisnia:

And you need somebody else to pull you back or something. So that's where having community and friends and family and a good therapist comes in. But for me it was always making music needed to like I really needed to want to do it and it took me a while to realize that I wanted to do it again. I had to find my way back to that place of wanting to do it.

Jennifer Logue:

Yes, and part of you. Coming back to music, you know we talked a little bit about your grandfather, David, and how performing with him kind of brought your spark back a little bit.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, this was really something I never expected. My grandfather was a cantor, so he was a singer all of his life and he was a singer when he was a young child growing up in Poland life. And he was a singer when he was a young child growing up in Poland. He was a singer later in life in congregations in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. So I always knew him as a singer because I would go and watch him sing and he had this big, booming, operatic voice and everybody knew him as the singer and that he was always on stage in front of people and so charismatic and so confident.

Avi Wisnia:

And another part of my grandfather's story is that music saved his life in World War II because he's a Holocaust survivor and he used his voice to kind of make himself useful to the Nazis in a concentration camp and it's part of the reason that he was able to survive and then come to the United States. So music literally saved his life and in 2015, he invited me to travel with him back to Poland. So he was nearly 90 at this point in his life and he was invited to go back to commemorate the liberation of the Auschwitz concentration camp where he was. So he was invited back by the government of Poland to sing at this place where these horrible, atrocious things happened to him and, first of all, the strength that he had to want to go back there and to this place, your grandfather is a magical human being.

Jennifer Logue:

I watched that Buzzfeed video again today, which is a mistake because I was bawling my eyes out. But just sidebar, you have to watch it. I'm sorry for interrupting, avi, please continue.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, and in this BuzzFeed video you get to hear his voice and I'm so glad that we have some of that preserved Him singing, but also him telling his story, because it is a remarkable and painful but an important story. And so he invited me to go back to Poland with him to help him travel, because he was 90 years old, but also, as I had grown into my own musician, we started performing together, so I would go back and I would play piano for him. And, being in Poland, in this place where these horrible things had happened to him and he had overcome and found a way to move forward after all these horrible things I mean his family was killed, along with so many other people, and the things that he saw and witnessed and experienced and then I went and I saw him sing in full voice, knowing the life that he had created and that he was still able to, not only to make music, but that music was his gateway to talking about things that he wasn't able to talk about or to express things that he wasn't able to express in words. It was his way of communicating to other people. It was his way of bonding with me through music and teaching me his music and when we were kind of arranging music together.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, and he really inspired me that, you know, and I heard it in his voice that even the horrible things that he couldn't talk about, the pain was there and what he went through was there and some things. I think I learned from him that some things you never, um, you never move on from, you carry with you, but you move forward with them and and one of those vehicles, one of those ways to move forward is with music. Learned that from him and I found my way back to music with him because I ended up performing with him and helping kind of coax out his story and learning some of his music and wanting to keep his music alive. So he would tell me his story and we ended up performing more together and ended up doing programs where he would actually talk about what happened to him and I was a part of that. I was able to help him with that and it was through music a lot of it that would help propel the story.

Jennifer Logue:

And then I mean it's just such a beautiful From something so painful. All these years later, you were able to bond with your grandfather in this way and to travel together and to create something together that's making an impact on so many people's lives. It's the most incredible story. I mean I can't get enough of that video and the documentary that got premiered a few months ago at the Hot Docs Film Festival how Saba kept singing. I mean I'm not sure if you want to talk about that at all, but it's just so moving.

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, I mean I'm so grateful that the documentary exists, because the documentary follows the last time that we went back to Poland together and it's the last trip that he ever took.

Avi Wisnia:

He passed away last year in the middle of COVID from not COVID-related complications, but it was in the middle, when we couldn't travel anywhere.

Avi Wisnia:

So the last thing that we did when the world was open was travel to Poland and go and do these performances where he grew up, and do these performances back at Auschwitz, and to have all that recorded in this documentary. You hear his story and his music, but you also get to see the two of us making music together and I get to see him talk about what that means for him, which is just really meaningful for me and to know that that his voice will always be preserved. You know, when I was watching that documentary, like there, he was like alive and singing again. You know and that's something beautiful too that I feel like as creative people, we create something and put it out into the world and hopefully with videos or albums or anything digital that's out there for people to interact with, and hopefully it will be long after we're gone. But you know, that's our. You can't help but change the world by putting something out there like that.

Avi Wisnia:

So you've got to put it out no matter how painful You've got to put it out.

Jennifer Logue:

No matter how hard it might be, because the other side is so much better. I just think your story with your grandfather is like the most beautiful thing I've heard in a long time, so I hope people listening to the podcast get to learn more about that too, and you have a website dedicated to this project. Do you want to say the name of that in case people are interested?

Avi Wisnia:

Yeah, the website is called my Polish Wisnia. People are interested. Yeah, the website is called my Polish Wisnia and you can find it on. It's a part of my website, aviwisniacom, because I started blogging about our travels together, just making these little posts, and I was so amazed at how impactful it seemed to be to people, just the response that I got from these posts of people following us and so interested in my grandfather's story and what we were doing and tracing his steps and the music we were making together. So I knew I wanted to put all of these posts and kind of the journey of the many trips that we took to Poland together. So, yeah, that's on my website and I called it my Polish Wisnia because my last name is Wisnia and in Polish, wisnia actually means black cherry, so it's like a flavor.

Avi Wisnia:

So, everywhere we went, people would give us these, like cherry flavored desserts and vodka and all these things, and you know, it was just such a part of rediscovering that history. And of course, in the Wisnia family we love to eat, so anything related is also very important. Very welcome, yep, yes, yes, so there's a lot of eating. A important, very welcome, yep, yes, yes, so there's a lot of eating, a lot of music making yeah, oh my gosh.

Avi Wisnia:

And I was able to record it all in this one place and the documentary will hopefully be coming out soon. We're just waiting for distribution. But yeah, it is done and it has a lot of incredible support. You mentioned Hillary and Chelsea Clinton, who are executive producing it, and I just know that my grandfather would be so happy that his music is out there and living on, and it was also that finding something that I could be a part of that was bigger than myself.

Jennifer Logue:

Yes.

Avi Wisnia:

That also helped me kind of find my way, finding my way back to being like okay, you know what, I'm ready to take a look at some of my old songs and dust them off and start thinking about putting new things out there and eventually finding the strength because it really felt like that emotional strength to, okay, I'm going to put out a new album, I'm ready to put new stuff out in the world, I'm ready to put my voice back out there in the world. And you know, it took that whole journey, all that time to realize that it was the right time.

Jennifer Logue:

Thank you for tuning in to this special rerun of my conversation with Avi Wisnia, the very first guest on Creative Space. His reflections on creativity, joy and resilience continue to inspire me, especially as how Saba Kept Singing heads into the Emmys next week, which is so cool. If you haven't yet, I encourage you to check out that documentary, and also check out Avi's latest album, catching Leaves, and dive deeper into his music at aviwizniacom. I'd love to hear what resonated with you from this episode. Feel free to reach out to me on social media at Jennifer Logue, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts so more creatives can discover creative space. Thanks again for being part of this journey with me as we revisit the best of season one and two. Stay tuned for more of the top episodes of Creative Space leading up to season three's premiere on Sunday, october 20th.