Creative Space with Jennifer Logue

ECD Christian Carl On Staying Creative Outside of Work and the Journey From Good to Great

• Jennifer Logue

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On today’s episode of Creative Space,  we have the pleasure of chatting with Christian Carl, executive creative director, copywriter, artist, author, musician and entrepreneur.

He most recently served as the Global Executive Creative Director for 160/90, with a client roster that included Lowe’s, Anheuser-Busch, University of Arizona, Marriott, Audi and Reebok.

Apart from his 32-year career in advertising so far, Christian has a number of creative projects outside of work, including his children’s book series, Land of Lots.

We cover a lot of ground in this episode, including how to lead creatives, the importance of having a creative outlet outside of agency life, and Christian’s creative process. 

For more on Christian Carl, visit: thechristiancarl.com.

And for more on Land of Lots, visit: thelandoflots.com.
To sign up for the weekly Creative Space newsletter, visit: eepurl.com/h8SJ9b.

SHOW NOTES:


0:00—Introduction

1:53—Growing up in Elkhart, Indiana

4:38—Early influences: cartoons, fashion and sports

7:30—Losing gracefully, winning gracefully and the importance of hard work

9:00—How Christian ended up in advertising 

10:25—From selling car phones door to door to his first agency job

12:13—The creative path is a scribble

13:51—”I know it’s right when it’s easy to write.”

16:00—There’s a reason you’re hitting that block. 

17:45—How to tell you have a great idea

19:00—Doubting yourself is part of being creative. 

20:35—Rick Rubin and Steven Pressfield shoutout

21:13—Getting to work on Volkswagen 

27:13—Christian’s definition of creativity

30:15—Advertising is like archaeology 

32:00—Christian’s creative process

35:00—The struggle in advertising for a creative

39:30—The work can never come before the people

45:45—The importance of staying creative outside of work

50:36—Two decades of working with PETA

55:33—The power of a great idea

58:00—Getting inspired to create ‘Land of Lots’

01:08:00—”Everything doesn’t have to be amazing and everything can’t be.”

01:12:00—Where Christian sees advertising going

01:18:00—What’s next for Christian





Jennifer Logue:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of creative space, a Podcast where we explore, learn and grow and creativity together. I'm your host Jennifer Logue and today we have the absolute pleasure of chatting with Kristian Karl, Executive Creative Director, copywriter, artist, author, musician and entrepreneur. He most recently served as the global executive creative director for 160 over 90 with a client roster that included Lowe's, Anheuser Busch University of Arizona, Marriott, Audi, and Reebok. He also recently launched a children's book series called land of lots, which is absolutely beautiful and heartwarming. And we're going to talk about it in the interview. But Welcome to Creative Space. Christian, it's such an honor to have you here. Thank you so much. No worries. It's nice to see you. And yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks. Yeah, likewise, and we initially met way back, like 2018 2019

Christian Carl:

pre pandemic, yeah. 160 over 90.

Jennifer Logue:

And I always admired your creativity. And, you know, you came to mind immediately when I was doing creative system. I gotta have Christian on the show for sure. Yeah, no, I know. We've talked about it for a while. I'm glad. It's, it's nice. It's finally happening. So thanks. So anyway, I'd like to start way back, like way to the beginning of your journey, best place to start.

Christian Carl:

So where did you grow up? And what was your childhood? Like? Yeah, I grew up in Elkhart, Indiana, which is a pretty small industrial town, in northern Indiana, it's right near South Bend, maybe half an hour from Notre Dame. And not a whole lot to do there. So my childhood was a lot of me finding ways to entertain myself.

Jennifer Logue:

And

Christian Carl:

it was, I played a lot of sports, and I watched a lot of TV and pretty much just found ways to use my imagination to keep myself from kind of going nuts. Because as pretty, you know, not not a whole lot going on there. But, you know, it was a cool place to grow up in a sense that it was, you know, small and pretty tight knit community, etc.

Jennifer Logue:

Cool. Well, your parents creative, or Was anyone in your family creative? Well, it's funny, because they're not defined creatively by their jobs. You know, my mom stayed at home, and my dad was a used car salesman, you know, most of his life and but, you know, when I started thinking about that question, I, you know, I realized they were both really creative in their own way, you know, my mom was made all our own clothes, when we were growing up, she used to make quilts and Afghans and, you know, I'd spend hours with her, like the wallpaper store, flipping through wallpaper patterns. And like, that was like, my favorite thing on earth, especially in the 70s. Because the patterns were, you know, super cool, and like, crazy, colorful, and like, you know, very, just expect kind of funky 70s You know, lots of oranges and browns. And

Christian Carl:

so, and she looked at, like sewing patterns, and I'd go to the so you know, the fabric store and look at, you know, material. And so I really, in many ways, you know, she was super creative. And then my dad was really into films and movies. So, I remember when I was 17, he was like, You need to sit down and watch the graduate with me, you're old enough now. And it's time. I need that throughout my whole childhood to be like, it's, you know, you're old enough now to see this classic film or that classic film, and, you know, really had great taste and movies. So I think, you know, I'm a very visual thinker for a writer and I think of a lot of my mom's, you know, World of patterns and designs. And, you know, I'm really into storytelling and film and I think I got that from my dad. So, you know, they're kind of like, closet creatives, you know? Yeah, I mean, we can be creative outside of work. You know, it's like, sizing that spirit. What was your first creative outlet? Yeah, that's so interesting. I think, you know, in many ways, it was, you know, cartoons and, you know, like drawing and kind of, you know, I think I had like a US typewriter got a garage sale when I was, you know, fourth grade or something and I was really into writing like Italian spy novels, you know, I think it was just a lot of different things, you know, I was into, you know, into TV and, you know, just the art and kind of comedy of, you know, animation and cartoons was really influential. And I used to try to draw them and, you know, I used to imitate them and, and I think dressing and, and clothing was like something I really was into at a very young age, like I really cared. Like about if my, you know, how I looked and like if things matched what, yeah, I used to be really into, like, you know, and I still am I really, you know, I love to put a good good fit together.

Jennifer Logue:

Ya know, I always love you always have like, really expressive clothing, like bright colors, like, you have lemon square.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, yeah. And everything. Yeah. And, you know, sports was a huge part of my childhood. And I think I express my creativity through that quite a bit. I mean, it was, it's probably the, you know, most influential thing and my childhood, it kept me out of trouble and, you know, eventually landed me a scholarship to college. So I owe a lot to, you know, that world of sports, which I'm completely the opposite of an athlete at this point, my life

Jennifer Logue:

was in play.

Christian Carl:

I played everything I wrestled ran, track played basketball, football, baseball. Tennis, yeah, I was on, you know, like, four different teams in high school. And, you know, it was really, basketball was huge. In Indiana, everybody played basketball. I remember, mom gave me the choice of playing the trumpet or playing sports and like, she wouldn't, you know, drive me to both. So I had to pick one. And I picked sports and I to this day, I'm like, should I pick trumpet I love music so much. For it's actually carried me quite a long way got me to college, at least. And so I think, you know, maybe I made the right choice. And I actually started teaching myself trumpet during the pandemic. So make up for some last time. Never too late.

Jennifer Logue:

It's never too late.

Christian Carl:

It's been fun. It's a it's a it's a blast.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh, my gosh. And I will say, like, maybe all the sports and like teamwork and everything, maybe that's carried into the work you do. You know, mentoring young creatives and

Christian Carl:

leading captain of most of my teams, I was always a leader, you know, in sports. And so yeah, I think, you know, in many ways that kept me out of trouble. And it taught me how to, you know, work with people and collaborate and, you know, lose gracefully and when gracefully and all those things that are important as a leader to know how to do so. And you know, the importance of hard work and what gets you you know, so

Jennifer Logue:

bringing that discipline to creativity. Yeah, it's like, priceless.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, I definitely think it taught me how to, you know, the working hard, you know, comes with some reward, you know, so

Jennifer Logue:

cool. Now, what did you study when you went to college?

Christian Carl:

So I was an English major, and I minored in creative writing. So yeah, I knew, you know, he used to get, you know, bad, bad test scores, and, you know, A's on all my papers. I was a good solid B student.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh, yeah, I hear you there.

Christian Carl:

I love to write I hated taking tests. And so the to kind of balance each other out. But yeah, I always, always knew I wanted to write and in some capacity, I just didn't know where I'd end up, you know, so cool.

Jennifer Logue:

So when did you decide you wanted to be an advertising?

Christian Carl:

Well, I never it's like, really funny because I, I grew up a product of television. And because of that, a product of advertising and I loved worlds of advertising. I loved radio commercials growing up, I like I love TV commercials. But I never thought my entire four years in college that I would I never even crossed my mind that that was a job or that I could do that for a living. And so I was a school teacher. My first year out of college, I taught PE to like K through eighth grade. And then I was like, the creative writing teacher to sixth, seventh and eighth grade. And I taught library skills, you know, pre K to five. And just I was at a bookstore one day and I saw this magazine called Communication Arts, which we, you know, are in this industry know of, and I started, you know, kind of flipping through it and I was like, Hey, wait a second. This stuff that these people are writing is funny. None of them are wearing suits, which I swore I would never do. No matter what would my career would be I would never wear a suit every day. And I was like, and it looks like they're, you know, having some fun and making a pretty good living. So I basically finished my first year of teaching and I packed up I was in Daytona Beach, Florida actually teaching, and I packed everything up and moved to Philadelphia because I was scared of New York just came from Indiana. I was like too much to comprehend that I couldn't move to New York. So I started a slightly smaller, you know, big city. And, yeah, so car foreign car phones, basically door to door, the original ones that came in, like a bad, you know, and then yeah, so the cigarette lighter, like the, like, the first year car phones were even like a thing I was like, selling them. And I made a portfolio by hand on went to Staples, bought a binder, like made some fake gap ads and some other ads and just got interviews, you know, in between my appointments, and eventually, someone hired me at Grant marketing, in Lafayette, Hill, Pennsylvania, which I'm sure no longer exists for nothing. And I worked six months and proved myself and eventually got hired. And I wrote postcards basically. For a couple of years, I was like, my first job. But yeah, so it was a, you know, kind of a interesting, you know, just inspired by a publication, like Communication Arts to take a leap, move to a big city and see what see what would happen. Take a leap of faith.

Jennifer Logue:

I love that organic progression.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, you know, you just kind of follow one thing to the next to the next to the next. So I've never had much of a massive plan, or scheme or idea of what I wanted to do I just kind of done what presents itself or what I guess I find, you know, when I'm looking?

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, it's like chasing the green lights, you know?

Christian Carl:

Yeah. You know, not being afraid to, you know, take a take a chance. Yeah. So. But yeah, I've made a lot of, you know, decisions throughout my career that took me backwards, and there's no like, you know, trajectories, it's like, it's like this way down, back down, over four, it's like a scribble. By the time you look at your path, you know, and I think a lot of young people think it's some kind of thing that's just gonna lay, we're gonna start here, and I'm gonna do this, and I'm going to do this, and then eventually, I'm going to do this. And it's like, just, you know, it never works out that way. So, you know, just keep kind of working with what you're given and taking what you can get, you know,

Jennifer Logue:

what was the biggest lesson you learned from that first experience, your first advertising job?

Christian Carl:

Oh, wow, I think it's kind of having, you know, the ability to just continue to explore and search for an answer, I think, you know, our, our, our job, at the end of the day is just basically problem solving through creativity. And, you know, you got to be able to walk into a maze and run into 100 walls and keep looking for the way out, you know, to kind of find your way into a story or way into an idea. And I think, you know, if you have that kind of bulldozer kind of relentless, you know, refusal to let any wall, you know, discourage you that, you know, you're gonna get somewhere, you know, and so, I think it's just, you know, I learned that you got to put the effort in to get anything out of it. You know,

Jennifer Logue:

before I forget the follow up question for this, on the subject of storytelling, yes. There's so many ways into a story. Like, how do you when you have a problem or story you're trying to tell? What is your process for finding that way? And when do you know what's right? I can remember

Christian Carl:

that, right? When it's easy to write. Hmm. Basically, if you don't have the right way, and you struggle the whole way through, you know, and then, you know, maybe somewhere toward the end, you'll actually find the way in, or maybe the where, you know, but I think it's like when it becomes when you don't have to think about it, and it just kind of flows you know, that you found the right way. And so usually if you're struggling and you know, you know, frustrated and you know, trying to force something to work, it's just like you, you know, you're not, you didn't find the right way and yet, I always say people always like Well, how long do you think something like this would take? Like, it depends on how long it takes me to find the way in like, I could find it In an hour, I could find it in three days, I could find it in a week, you know, like, obviously, I don't always get the luxury of time. But it's, it's true. It's like, sometimes you find that way in right away. And sometimes it's not so easy. And I think a lot of its luck, a lot of its determination, you know, but I think things that are, right, are much easier than things that are wrong. When it's flowing. Yeah, exactly. So you know, you just, you know, you feel it, you know, and I think like, you have to trust that and not kind of banging your head against the same wall over and over again, you got to kind of know when to take a step back and try a different way. And, you know, when things start to, when you hit that block, it's like, oh, there's a reason you're hitting that block, it's not like you have to fight through it, you have to kind of walk walk away from that block, and, you know, open another avenue up and see where it takes you.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, I'm so glad to ask that. Because, you know, it's so easy to get fixated as a creative, and like a certain way of doing something or approaching a story. But if you just take that step back, you could find something even a million times better.

Christian Carl:

Totally. I mean, the thing that's really funny is how, you know, when I'm leading a team for big, you know, like, platform idea for, you know, for a pitcher for a brand, you know, they get really frustrated, because it's, you know, it's hard to get to the answer. But when you find the answer, it's super easy. And so I keep, you know, I tell people every day, like, don't get frustrated, we're going to find the answer. And it's going to be easy. Like, there's two things on this wall, there will be 50, in about a half an hour, once we figure it out. So just, and we will figure it out. So just wait for it, keep working through it. And like, you know, when we find it, we're going to be having a blast, and then it happens every time. You know, it's like, a day later than anybody can hardly stand it. Yeah, everyone motivated, but the minute, you know that, that answer presents itself. Everyone's having fun, you know, and we're just making, you know, and, you know, just getting people to realize, like, it doesn't come easy, until you've put the effort in to get there, you know? And again, yeah, sometimes it comes sooner rather than later. But it's like, don't worry about, you know, it'll all fall into place. You just gotta keep trying, you know?

Jennifer Logue:

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. That's something else I always wanted to ask you is, how do you know, like, especially in terms of advertising and working on concepts and stuff? How do you know, when we hit on the right idea? There are certain criteria?

Christian Carl:

Well, I mean, I have a whole kind of process in my head on, you know, understanding what story is you're trying to tell before you can tell it and I think you kind of know you have it, when, again, it's easy to execute anything you possibly need to execute against, like, it shouldn't be hard to write a TV spot or billboard or, you know, any of those things, if the story if the idea is there, and the story is figured out. So I think everyone needs to know the story they're trying to tell before they start trying to tell it, you know, and they need to know that that story is going to work across every possible touch point. And you don't know that until, you know, there's no you know, like, you have to ask a lot of people to have faith in the fact that we will know it when you know, there's no like secret event, it's just continuing to try until you know, you break through so but I know that when I always say I know it when it's easy, you know, like that's when I know I love it the middle of working on something now that's you know, just driving me insane. But I you know, and I go through the whole thing of like, I'm never going to solve this oh my god, this is gonna you know, what is going on? How come I can't figure this out? Like, you gotta go through all that stuff. You know, in order to end you got to question yourself and doubt yourself and wonder if you know what you're doing and like all that stuff is like just something you have to come to accept, you know, that it's part of the process of being creative, as you know, all of that kind of doubt and you know, worry and all that pressure you put on yourself like the only good people I've ever known in this industry. know are people who, you know, put more pressure on themselves, you know, than they do anybody else, you know. And I think that's necessary for us to be really hard on ourselves in order to be good at what we do not not not mean to ourselves, but just tough on our selves, you know, and it's okay to feel bad sometimes. You know, I think it's part of the process,

Jennifer Logue:

ya know, it's pushing through that wall, you know, and it's made up of different things for different people. Someone recommended to me the author, Steven Pressfield.

Christian Carl:

Oh, yeah. Check it out.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, he's, it's all about the creative process and like, pushing through as a writer. Oh, yeah. He really gets into the nitty gritty and he does not. If you listen to him on Audible, he's reading it. And he's like, no nonsense, like, no excuses. Yeah,

Christian Carl:

I'll check it out. Yeah, I just picked up Rick Rubin's book, which I haven't started reading yet. But I've heard some good things about that. So I'm excited to dig into that.

Jennifer Logue:

Oh, I got to pick that up. Yeah. What was your first big break in advertising? Would you say?

Christian Carl:

Well, I was working at Earl Palmer Brown, which no longer exists and Philadelphia and woody Kay was like, a really, man still is an amazing, creative force. And he like started, you know, pagano shank, and K with, you know, Ernie shank, who's like a legendary writer. And he's woody himself as a legendary art director, and he somehow ended up with a short stint at Oklahoma Brown. And he asked for everyone's books, and, you know, in the network, and so I, you know, I sent him my book and ended up you know, to, or Homer brown closed down, and I ended up getting a job in Princeton, and like, you know, 678 months later, he called me up and said, he landed a job at Arnold and DC, it was in Bethesda, Maryland, actually, I think, but for, ya know, Volkswagen was one of their accounts, and they needed a radio writer for North America, you know, retail, and he was like, he left to, you know, demote yourself from CD to copywriter, and you can't, you know, unless you move here, I can't cover your, you know, your room and board while you're here. So I basically said, um, yeah, of course, like Volkswagen, who doesn't want to, you know, work on that. And I was a radio writer, pretty much the first four or five years of my advertising career after I left that direct marketing shop, and which basically, I owe everything to because writing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of radio spots makes you a really good storyteller, in a short amount of time makes you think, you know, in the theater, you know, aspect on sound design, and, you know, you have to have a really awesome weigh in and a really tight, you know, tight, wrap it up in a tight little bow at the end. And, you know, you gotta entertain people, you know, in a short amount of time and get a lot of information in. And so yeah, I went to, I accepted that job. And I basically would drive from Philly, you know, Sunday night, and I'd sleep in my office on a air mattress. And so I had this portable aero bed, and I would like, keep it in my filing cabinet. And everyone would leave for the day, and I'd act like I'm working late. And I would pull the arrow bit out and I'd blow it up. And I did that like Monday through Thursday for like a year. Wow, I would just stay in my office and they had a shower, luckily, and like, so I'd wake up at like 530 before anyone got in and I act like I was in early and eventually would he picked up on the fact that I was sleeping. And then he loved it actually, which is kind of funny. And it's what I had to do to like, get a break in the business. And then he eventually bought me like a pullout couch from Design Within Reach. I remember it was a big deal. They all were excited to get him. Yeah, and then I actually got promoted from DC to Boston to actually work on the brand, you know, and not be just a radio writer, but you know, do more work in the Boston office, which did you know, the TV and a lot and all the digital work for them at the time. But yeah, just that was my big break woody Kay, you know, somehow had faith in me that I was someone you know, worth, you know, putting up with as a, you know, as a nightly resident of the office and then yeah, and from there, you know, Arnold in that job in Boston was, you know, turned into, you know, the next job and the next job and, you know, really good work on a lot of, you know, pretty awesome brands, you know, so, yeah, that's, that was my big break, I owe it all to Woody Kay, so thank you Woody.

Jennifer Logue:

Awesome. Thank you, Woody. And also you, like, gave it your all you went above and beyond you were like sleeping in the office, you made it work? Like, do you put the grid into?

Christian Carl:

Oh, yeah, you know, I mean, at that time, you know, there weren't, I mean, at school wasn't a big thing back then, you know, it's like, you know, there. I didn't even know I wanted to be in that business. And so, you know, it took a lot of, you know, took a lot of work to kind of work my way into, I worked in Philly for a long time, I, you know, I worked on hers, potato chips, and a lot of like, you know, kind of local regional brands and Comcast and, you know, that stuff was great, you know, introduction into that, but I always I remember, I was editing in New York, on like, a Helzberg, diamonds TV spot, you know, and next door was a group from Arnold cutting, like, you know, Pink Moon from Volkswagen, you know, and I was just like, you know, what's probably one of the greatest spots ever made. And I just remember thinking, like, someday, I would love to be in edits, we working on something, you know, for Volkswagen. And like, he's just like, a year or so later, you know, what he asked me to come work on, you know, work on Volkswagen. And, you know, eventually I was, you know, at that same place working on, you know, working on the brand I had hoped and dreamed I would be working on, you know, someday. So, you know, I did, I guess what I had to do to, like, get there. And I was, you know, I don't know if I would advise anybody to do that. Now. I don't know if it was the healthiest thing. But, you know, it's what, it's what I felt like I had to do at the time.

Jennifer Logue:

That's so cool. That is so cool. This is creative space. And I love asking this question of everyone a Christian, what is your definition of creativity?

Christian Carl:

I think it's just solving a problem. Really Mean, finding a shortcut home, you know, is creativity, like, Oh, just a better way, finding a better way to do something is creativity, like, you know, even through art, it's like finding a better way, you know, finding a way to connect with people, you know, finding a way to elicit emotion. But I really think it's just what, what I, you know, what drives me as a creative person is the act of solving a problem with words and pictures, and, you know, you know, really, like, all the making of the work and the production, like, that's all cool and everything, but highlight of my experience on any project is, when the problem when I feel like the problem was solved, you know, like solving a business problem solving any kind of problem, you know, in a creative, you know, in a way that's unexpected is creativity, you know, like, translating something in a new and different way, there's creativity, you know, it's like, you take something that exists, and you, you know, you change the way it's communicated. I feel like every brand really knows who they are, you know, and has always known who they are, and they are always searching for the best possible way to express it. And, you know, creativity is really just looking for the best possible way to express a thought idea, feeling. You know, and, you know, the problem is, usually it's not expressed properly, you know, I mean, there's brands like Nike that figured out how to express their brand, you know, and there are brands that will exist forever that never quite figure it out, you know, but it's a constant search for the best possible way to, you know, tell the same story you've been telling over and over again, you know, but just creativity is finding a better different, more interesting way to tell it

Jennifer Logue:

communicates the idea to people. Yeah, thanks them.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, look at like laundry detergent tide figured out a really interesting way to tell their story by using every other commercial on TV as an ad for themselves. Like, you know, like, that was brilliant. And I think look at all the work they've done their entire life as a brand, none of it super memorable or compelling or, you know, grind on breaking and, you know, someone use creativity to figure out a better way to tell that story that it gets close, clean, you know, like, and I think that's, that's what we do every day. And advertising at least now is taking like, you know, a found a truth and polishing it up in a way that can read and we can re present it to the world and suddenly know it's magical.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, and sometimes it's the smallest details, yes, small refinements that make the biggest difference?

Christian Carl:

Oh, it's true. It can be, you know, it can be it can be a 10th of a degree shift, you know, one word change, you know, one image that no one ever thought of before, but, you know, and, you know, there's a lot of really good work out there. And there's a lot of great work out there. And that's what separates good work from great work. And I've done plenty of pretty good work. And great works hard to come by, you know, and the hard for everyone to recognize or have the courage to recognize, so you know, when you get that chance, and so, it's like, you know, it is like, finding, finding something that's been hidden forever. You know, I always compare what we do to archaeology, at least what a writer does, it's like digging up truths, and represent representing them to the world. You know, I It's like, Wow,

Jennifer Logue:

I love that visual.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, just like you do is dig up something that's been there forever. When we find it, we polish it up. And we you know, and the biggest victory is when a client goes, I never thought we could be that interesting or that cool, but it's actually exactly who we are. You know, you can't compromise you can't not be who you are. It's like, you know, it's a makeover. Basically, you know, we're fascinated with makeovers, like, before we do, giving brands, you know, a makeover, you know, like, everyone loves a good makeover. So,

Jennifer Logue:

yes. So, what is we touched on this a little bit. But what is your creative process, like, I mean, you do work outside of agency work, you do your own projects, to do you, because you're a writer, you're also an artist, like a visual artist, which is awesome. I'm not visual artists, not my, my skill. So I always admire writers who can draw and paint and do all that, because you're able to, like, just express things to the next level, you know, it's a great tool, I think,

Christian Carl:

Well, I never painted or really drew like I did when I was a kid. But like, I wasn't a trained artist, I never took an art class or real art class. And I think I was in my early 40s, when I first started to draw and paint. Great a person. I don't know what drove me to do it. But I bought a canvas one day and painted, bought some paints, and just started painting. And then I started spray painting, and then you know, 800 paintings later, I was really into it, and I just kind of I went for it. But I think the way that I write and the way that I create is never really with a plan, I just start doing it. And then I just follow where it takes me. So my art is never preconceived, I don't go, I'm gonna paint a picture of a, you know, Mercadona, whatever, like, I just start painting. And then the painting just goes through a million iterations till it becomes the painting I end up doing. And I think when I write, that's the same thing. I write as many words as I can, until the only ones left are the ones that are right. Paint as many layers I can add as many things as I can to the, you know, I land somewhere where I think it's done, you know, and so I really don't have a process other than the processes, just start doing it.

Jennifer Logue:

And be present with it. Like,

Christian Carl:

yeah, and let it take you where it takes you and don't be afraid to go down, you know, some some weird avenues and, you know, like, don't be afraid to erase everything and start over, like, my paintings are 17 paintings underneath the painting I ended up doing, I mean, there's literally 17 versions of whatever and it's gone from completely different styles. You know, like, I'll start with something very, you know, you know, kind of abstract and then you know, I'll do something kind of more this and something like that. And then like, who knows where it ends up in. So my canvases are probably, you know, 17 paintings deep and other ideas that I just ended up painting over, you know, because I just do it until I feel good about what I have done, you know, letting it lead you. So I, I, I think the struggle with advertising and what's really difficult about it is it is not designed in any way shape or form to be an organic process. Everything is rigid and structured, and there's deadlines, and there's this and there's all these structures. And, you know, and my job as a, you know, creative and as a creative department leader, has been to do everything I possibly can to maintain an organic feeling to a completely, you know, to a process that was not designed at all to be so. And so that causes a lot of discomfort and a lot of anxiety in some people because it's like, hey, we you know, it's coming. Don't worry, it's all gonna go there. Don't worry. Yeah, I know, this doesn't look right yet. But we're getting somewhere I know, we're on the right track. We're on the trail, we're following the Chrome's like, you know, it's here. And, you know, it always ends up revealing itself. And I think like, you know, to have the patience to be wrong a bunch of times till you're right, is really my process, you know, like, and not to be afraid to just be like, yeah, that was like, the last three weeks in my life, and I'm in a pain over it. Yeah. Because it's not, it's not right. Yeah,

Jennifer Logue:

it's great work, the roads are getting to that great work, it requires like, not just the creatives, but the support of everyone around the creative to like, give them the time and have faith in them to deliver.

Christian Carl:

So you know, I'm trying to buy time, I'm also, like, I kind of know the answer before, most of the people I'm directing kind of do in a in a strange way, like, I kind of know where it needs to go. But you can't really tell them how to do it, but I can kind of plant hints and seeds and, you know, work of phrase into a conversation and then, you know, hopefully they grab on to it. So there's a lot of that it's very, you know, it's a very, like, you know, how do you guide people without just telling them what to do? Yeah, gotta be really patient, you know, and you've got to kind of, you know, know, as a, as a creative director, how to drop the right clues, if you kind of know where they should go with it. And they haven't figured it out yet. Because you, they've got to figure it out themselves. But you know, they need a little help. It's like a, you know, a teacher teaches how to do something, they can't take the test for you. Yeah, they did everything they could to kind of, you know, give you ways to solve problems, you know, and so I think, you know, it's, it's an interesting kind of balancing act, you know, how to not tell someone the answer, but how to lead them to it. In a way, they still were able to find it themselves, even though you kind of helped them all.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, I think that's the best way to lead. Because sometimes they might take in direction. That's a little different than you imagine. But maybe it's even better.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, and that's okay. You know, like, I'm really, you know, if it works, it works, you know, and if the logic isn't there, and the ability to write and create, really easily and freely from it isn't there, you know, I kind of have to be honest about that, and say, it's not working. But if you find out another way, and it works, let's let's do it, you know, so I think there's some times when just Time is not on our side, I might have to be a little more like, this is what we got to do. Yeah, you know, like, you know, I've waited as long as I possibly could, you know, and like, let's just do this. And they appreciate that in many ways, because, you know, everyone's stressed out. So it's also knowing when to just say, hey, you know, let's do this. And let's do it this way. You know, so it's a it's definitely a weird balancing act, and you know, managing a bunch of creative people's creative people aren't easy to manage. They're not easy to live with, I can tell you that.

Jennifer Logue:

I know that.

Christian Carl:

Yeah. And definitely not easy to manage. But I think that's the, the fun of it. You know, it's a really interesting challenge.

Jennifer Logue:

If you could pick three rules for bringing out the best in the creatives you work with, oh, those rules be well, or guidelines. You know,

Christian Carl:

I think I really just kind of have one that might be a couple built into one, but I think my ultimate piece of advice is put people first the work second and both get better. Like I really believe that so, you know, work doesn't get done well. If people aren't You know, put first and that process. And that just doesn't mean like, you know, be you know, you know, be easy on the timeline to be easy, it just means like, the work can never come before the people doing it, you know, like that it's, you know, people are more important in their development and growth is more important, you know, their ability to feel heard and understood and, you know, is, is what will make them really good at what they do, you know, and also make them more interested in learning from you as a leader. You know, I believe that, and I didn't always work that way, you know, when I was younger, I was definitely a different kind of leader. And I got called out on it, and I took it to heart and I changed the way that I, you know, I made it a lot about me, and I, you know, I was very, you know, a little more hands on and a lot more controlling, and, you know, a lot more, you know, like, I thought I cared more than everybody else doesn't watch. As much as I do, don't these people care, you know, like, I was a, that's just, you know, youth and inexperience and working for some people who had the, you know, ability to call me out, and, you know, bring it to my attention and my ability to recognize that as something I needed to change so, and it changed everything. For me, I became a much better leader, much better at my job. Much more respected as a member of creative department, whichever one I was a part of. And, yeah, I mean, I feel like yeah, people first the work second. Everything else works itself out.

Jennifer Logue:

That is the golden rule that's gone on my wall. Yeah.

Christian Carl:

It works. Because there's always another project, there's always another be like, it's not. Now I know, we like to think we're saving lives. And I guess, you know, some work does actually do some pretty amazing things to help the world. But at the end of the day, nothing's more important than, you know, other people doing the work. So I learned that a lot. My dad, he was awesome. Like, he, you know, was really good manager of people like he ran. Later years, he ran like a factory for motor homes. And I used to go to work with them. And he'd do the rounds and pass out the paychecks and be like, We fooled him again, everybody, you know, and he, like, he was the guy that was like, on the floor, with the people getting his hand, you know, he was just in there. And he was like, you know, yeah, he was there for them. And like, they knew it, and they loved him for that. And I think like, at the end of the day, you know, we can't be there. For the company. You know, I hate to say it, but you know, I was never anywhere for the company. I was there for the people, you know, a company could take it or leave it, you know, to be honest. Yeah. And I think that's super important. To remember, you know, companies don't have relationships with you have to leave but people do.

Jennifer Logue:

Amen. That is so true. Oh, my gosh, what have been the greatest challenges you face in your career so far? Oh,

Christian Carl:

I think confidence, you know, in my ability, I think I've worked really hard throughout my whole career, to kind of not take things personally, you know, and to separate feedback from, you know, it being personal. And that's really hard. You know, it's been really hard for me just openly and honestly, like, I've had to work. I was very defensive in my early earlier years in the business, you know, and kind of would walk away just, you know, almost like, they don't know what they're talking about, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, it doesn't really get you very far. You know, so I think that's probably been my greatest challenge is to kind of recognize that opinions matter. You know, and they're saying it for some reason, whether you, you know, and your, your job, at the end of the day is to do what's right for, you know, the people paying you to do it, like it's not art, and it's not yours. I think like, I've overcome that challenge. I think I'm in a space I have been for a little while. But that was my biggest challenge to realize that this isn't my work. It is a isness and my job is to help other people succeed through, you know, and I'm getting paid to do that. So it's not mine. And, you know, like, whether I think they're right or wrong or whatever, it doesn't even really matter, it's like, my job is to do the very best job I can to give people what they want in a way they didn't expect, you know, and if they ask for it a certain way, that's their prerogative, you know, and it's my job to, you know, keep an open mind and see how I can guide and steer without, you know, kind of shutting down or, or taking, you know, personal. So I think that's, that's a really hard lesson for a lot of creative people to learn.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, like, being in service to the client?

Christian Carl:

Yeah, I mean, you know, that's like, you know, I've always said Don't, don't let advertising be the sole definition of your creativity, because we'll never be satisfied. And that doesn't mean we don't get to do things we love. And we don't, we're not proud of them, but they are not yours. You know, and you can't possibly be someone who is open, if you think that your book is defining you as a creative person, because, no, it's not. It's defining your work as a creative business problem solver and advertising. Part of who you are creatively, but it is not your work, you know, it's someone else's, we sign a piece of paper that says it's not our work. And so where do you think getting it's not your work? You know, you're a part of it, you're part of a massive group of people, you know, how many people there are strategists involved in that work and all these, it's so not yours, you know, so I've always told creatives, like, you know, don't let that be the sole definition of who you are, creatively, and you'll actually be better at it. You'll go further, and you'll be better at that job. Because it is a job.

Jennifer Logue:

Yes. And you've always had creative projects outside of work. And I, too, had my creative projects outside of work. And it just, I noticed in periods where I didn't, I am less happy at work, and I'm less creative, but when I have stuff that I'm working on it, like, fuels my work,

Christian Carl:

oh, yeah, you are so much better at your job, when you are opening yourself up to other avenues of, you know, creative exploration. And you're also way more subjective, like, it's like, if this is all you got, you know, you get really protective of it, you might you know, you like you know, that you don't want you to you know, you're way less flexible about it, you know, and so much is riding on it, because you've got nothing else that you actually lose your ability to see clearly, you know, and then you start, you know, you start being a conspirator to your own desires, and you're not actually servicing the client and doing your job. You know, there's so much like psychology, in, in the world of creative and creativity and advertising that you could probably, maybe I should write a book on, I should read a book, because it's, it's, you know, it's not yours. And that's, you know, those awards aren't even yours, you know, nothing you're seeing. I'm not saying you're not a part of it, but you know what I mean, at the end of the day, it defines you as a, you know, a person who works in advertising, not as, not as Jennifer Christian, you know, like, it's a part of it, but

Jennifer Logue:

it's like bringing ourselves to work. Yes. What makes it better, like everyone brings their own experiences and their own passions?

Christian Carl:

Yeah, I mean, I think exploring painting and exploring music, like I have, like, I'm not a trained musician, I made a record, I put my fingers places I figured out chords, I didn't know what they were, I couldn't play that record. If you asked me to today, like I but I made it you know, figured it out. But that made me just way better at my job and I can't even kind of make it figure out a tangible reason why but I I came to work energized I came to work, you know, you know with other things, you know, that were mine. So I could be a lot more selfless, you know, when when I showed up at work, you know, I know it's may not work for everybody but definitely worked for me.

Jennifer Logue:

Yeah, I mean, just what I like to do in my spare time is make stuff so

Christian Carl:

yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, if I can't not be you know, it's like a I don't know if I chose to do it because I needed to but I definitely after The first six, seven years of my career knew that I couldn't. I couldn't rely on advertising to be the, the sole contributor to my self as a creative person, you know, your creative fulfillment, but I was limiting myself. And by doing that, you know,

Jennifer Logue:

for sure. So now into your projects. Christian, you have so many. So I picked a few like, Yeah, that's cool. Those were good ones, I think. Yeah. So the first one I want to talk about is a spot you did for PETA. Yes. The teddy bear tackles the trauma of animal tests. Yes. All right. I, it took me a few times to get through it Christian. It was so visceral. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to actually watch this whole thing through. First of all, how did you how did the opportunity come about? And then how did you, like come upon that idea of using a teddy bear to share the story? Well, I've been

Christian Carl:

working for beauty for like 20 to 2122 years now. Yeah, making at least one or two phones for them every year, like I've been, you know, I've had to keep it pretty much quiet because every agents ever worked for had like a QSR. Some, you know, client they didn't, you know, want me to put it on LinkedIn, they didn't want the client to see that I was working for, you know, an organization that would you know, that that McDonald's or someone else would, you know, not be happy to hear their creative director was, you know, just kind of crazy. So it was always really kept. I always just kind of kept it my own little secret, like it's a section on my portfolio, you know, and I've probably made 25 or 30 PETA films in the last however many years. So. Yeah, the first one was like a ufer murder, like ufer is dead. I think it was called and, you know, it was like shortlisted at Cannes and being in the park one day, and I saw a woman wearing a fur coat and me and this guy named Dan Neary who, you know, started his career in Philadelphia. We were sitting having lunch, you know, we both worked at Palmer Brown at the time. And we saw like, it was like 6570 degree day and there was a woman walking through Rittenhouse Square, you know, with like a fur coat on and I was like, someone should just beat her to death and take her coat. Like a terrible thing to say, but like, Hey, that's a spot, you know, and we wrote it up. And we faxed it because we faxed things back then we faxed it to PETA. And they called us up and said they loved it. And two weeks later, we were in Ireland shooting with this really awesome director, Richie Smith. And we made this thing and it was huge. It got all these publications, I got, you know, got into every award show. And since then, you know, I've been doing work for them ever since. But anyway, so yeah, I've had a relationship with them for a long time. And so the, the biggest challenge with PETA is how do you expose violence without, you know, in a way that one people will watch, you know, because when you use undercover footage of animal abuse and violence, nobody can stand it, you know, it's almost like forcing someone to look at someone they don't want to do, you know, they want to see almost like the news does every night, you know, just like, why are you making me watch this, but, you know, it's important, that's why it's on the news. But when it comes to animals, nobody wants to see what's really going on. And secondly, no one will air it. So no one will air anything that, you know, exposes animal violence, but they'll air people stabbing each other and killing, you know, like, it's just kind of nuts. But when it comes to animal rights, it's like the media just shuts it shuts them down. So the challenge has always been, how do you tell stories of animal abuse without actually showing animal abuse? And so, you know, I came up with this thought that you know, and, you know, because they you know, Peters point of view, you know, animals are sentient beings who feel and you know, you know, they are equal to humans and emotion and everything. So I just in my writing had written this turn of phrase, it was like a real animal is someone not something, you know? So I thought like, well, you know, what's a thing that represents an animal it's like a teddy bear. And what's the thing that everybody loves wouldn't you know, wouldn't want to see you know, put under you know, on a table and opened up and stuffing i was i I mean, it's so hard to watch, right? It's not even, you know, like, that's what's crazy about that. Film is like people We'll have a hard time, you know, seeing that, and it's a inanimate teddy bear. So now, you know, a real Adam was someone not something was just, you know, that led me to kind of going, you know, what's the thing that we could you know, what's an animal someone? So what's the thing, you know, how can we make it a thing you know, and still, you know, elicit emotion and make people understand the pain and the suffering without resorting to, you know, undercover footage of actual, you know, things. So yeah, it just that was kind of the thinking behind it. And honest to God, I didn't know if it would work or not, because I'm like, Well, this just be dumb. It's like a teddy bear, there's gonna be kind of, you know, at the end of the day, people just be like, that was stupid, you know, but like, when we were filming, I was like, Oh, my God, really powerful. You know, and then we were editing it, you know, with the power of sound and music. And, you know, I mean, it was shot beautifully. And, you know, the color work on it's beautiful. And the editing is really nicely done. And, you know, a lot of really simple little filmmaking techniques that, you know, like the guy who's carrying the, you know, basket with the, you know, the cage with the teddy bear, and it's got a limp, and it's just kind of creepy. And so there's a lot of little, like, you know, kind of simple little things that angel aquastyle ski the directors, brilliant, and do Shandra kowski, both Bulgarian and incredibly talented individuals, you know, were a part of helping me put that together. But yeah, it was just a, you know, how do we get it to air? You know, past the censors? And how do we still make people feel, you know, the pain we're trying to make them feel and understand

Jennifer Logue:

is like, the best thing I've seen, it really made an impact, like, I shared it, when you initially shared it, like, send it to a few people might go, oh, my gosh, like, Oh, thanks.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, actually, it's interesting, because it helped me get my job at 160. Because Ryan Wagman, who's the, you know, CCO of, of one six year before it was 160 over and it was kind of the, you know, the CCO of the all the Endeavor owned properties. You know, I sent him that when I was interviewing, and, you know, he was, you know, really blown away by that. So, you know, it opened up a really amazing opportunity for me, and we did that for$30,000. You know, like, it looks like a, you know, $700,000 beautiful film, you know, and so I think it speaks to the power of a really good idea. If it's, if it's something powerful and important, people will do it, you know, like, you can always find someone who's willing to do something. And you just gotta look, you know, but uh, you know, it doesn't always have to cost a million dollars to do something great, like great ideas will get made, because somebody will want to do it. Just got to do the work to find that is

Jennifer Logue:

love that. And then you have your latest project, Landa blots

Christian Carl:

completely different world than the completely

Jennifer Logue:

flipping it. We're flipping it now. It's beautiful. I love the illustrations, I love the story, the message, you know, everything's really magical about it. Where were you when you first got the idea? To write a children's book series.

Christian Carl:

So I never really thought about writing a children's book for some reason. I know that, you know, I was a school teacher, and I really love kids. And I've had, you know, raise three different kids over three decades. And like, you know, I've always been kind of a kid at heart, I'm, you know, I can literally hang with like second graders, and just another second grader. It's kind of sad. And so, interestingly enough, I was in IKEA. And you know, IKEA has all those, you know, Swedish names for products and there was, like, I was looking at a package of like, you know, some food in the, I think it might have been their frozen meatballs or something. And I just kind of noticed, like, the Oh, with the two dots over which is called a new lot, you know, and then I kind of continuing my journey and IKEA was like, well, there's these little Oh, and these two dots and like almost every product name, you know, it's like it's everywhere. And then when I got to the cafeteria, and I sat down and I was like eating I was like, you know, that's kind of like a cool like, base design. You know, element for us. set of characters because it kind of looks like a face. And so I literally Drew, you know, like a circle into dots. And then I drew a bear head around it. And then I do a cat head around. And then I drew, like, you know, a fish head around and like all these different like animal heads. And then when I got home I drew, like, every animal I could think of around. And I was like, you know, this is kind of fun. You know, I was like, I wonder what I would call these characters. I was just like, exploring something I thought was fun. And so I was like, Well, you know, I should call them uhm, lots because they're based off, you know, the idea of just those two dots, which is a new line, but it's like UML, a, you know, whatever. It's spelled differently. But I was like, No, I'll just call them uhm, lots because it's easier. Oh, MLO t. And then, you know, from there, I was like, Well, what do lots like to do is like, well, they like to do things lots, what kind of things? Do they have to do lots. And I was like, Well, what am I kids like to do lots, you know? And then I was like, Well, what if it's, you know, things that could be annoying, because kids can be, you know, kind of overbearing sometimes. You know, and so you know, I know, my my kids like to talk lots and they like to laugh lots, and they like to, you know, help lots and they like to, you know, read laws and they like to do this lots and then I was you know, from there, I was like, Okay, well, who likes to read lots? Well, maybe the cat and we'll call her page because page and really, you know, just kind of went and kept going and I was like, well, who's gonna take care of you? And lots I'm like, Oh, I think love law. You know? Yes. Kind of cool. You know, I was a huge into Winnie the Pooh. This is like Winnie the Pooh in space. I just, you know, like, I don't mind giving away my, you know, kind of base inspiration was like, you know, like, who's my Christopher Robin, basically, you know, it's like, oh, it's love LA, you know? And that was like, Well, where do they live? You know, it's like, I guess the land of lots because that kind of sounds cool. And I was like, well, what's the land and lots all about. And then I just, like, kept writing out, you know, like, each character and what each character's personality trait is. And then I wrote like an animated pilot, and, you know, like, script. And then I wrote 168 Page graphic novel, and drew all the characters that I ran into, you know, Chuck, and Sue Willis trucks, an editor in New York, and was telling them all about the Zoom line idea. And he's like, I love that he's like, why don't we, you know, like, I'd like to get in on it, you know, and so, he and Sue are like, you know, let's partner, we'll help you get it off the ground. And then they were like, We want you to start with children's books. So I had to like, kind of write the prequel to the graphic novel that was just, you know, that I wrote for seven to 12 year olds, which was like super trippy and psychedelic and kind of hold Doom laden gloom, lot, the bad guys out of it and kind of figure out what the pre story to that world would be. And then there's 11 years and all that, I think at least six with seven with Chuck in the zoo, that we've been gone through iteration after iteration before we published it. And that all started with a trip to IKEA, just seeing some kind of, you know, and a lot of animation, there's like a character feature that just kind of repeats itself and all the character unifies them. And so, you know, I kind of figured that out and thought, well, this could be one of those simple little unifying, you know, things. Yeah, it's amazing what can happen with a crazy mind and a, you know, a package of meatballs?

Jennifer Logue:

No, so he built a whole world around that. It's so cool. Oh, yeah,

Christian Carl:

it started out as a simple little, you know, like, sounds really cliche, but like, a couple of dumb doodles on a napkin. And, you know, here we are, it's, you know, in seven or eight school curriculums and on Long Island, and wow, you know, it's, hopefully something that I know, a publisher, at some point will recognize the power of, you know, we self published and no, been out there. I know, like, it's interesting, because I'm starting at the bottom of an industry, you know, because I'm, you know, basically working my way to the somewhat top of an industry and like, I go to these book fairs, I met the worst booth in the very back corner, you know, that no one even walks by, you know, hoping someone sees our little, you know, and like, like, telling my story over and over and trying to pull people over, like, you know, like, I'm selling car phones again, but it's books, like, and it's been really cool to kind of feel like, this is what it means to like, start from nothing, you know, and like, work towards something in a new industry. So I'm like, really at the, like, I've had rejection after rejection. Most publishers are like, we don't understand the point of the books. Where's the lesson? Where's the, you know, like, they're too long there to this there to that and um, you know, just kind of like sticking to it and you know, maybe eventually 11 years from now someone else But it takes one yes. Yeah. Just takes one. Yes. So, you know, just, it's kind of cool. We're just out there, you know, kind of doing it ourselves, you know, I go into schools doing the readings, so on the books, you know, walking into bookstores trying to get him to carry it. No, I'm just like, a door to door salesman again. So it's been, it's been kind of cool. You know, so I'm excited to see where it goes. But you know, I think maybe just got to write another book and write more, you know, because I've written seven of these. There's 13. And all when I'm going to be,

Jennifer Logue:

oh, I didn't realize there were so many.

Christian Carl:

I put, yeah, there's one character. So there's the first book and then there's Plan page, you know, no plan, everybody, you know, and then I plan to carry it to seven to 12 year olds, to do the graphic novel. So introduced the the bad, guys. And that gets super trippy and bizarre, you know, and a little more like, in my wheelhouse, which I'm kind of excited about. Yeah, you know, but maybe write a whole different series and see what happens with that. I think one thing is like, you know, again, like, hitting a wall, maybe it's, maybe it's okay to put that aside and do something else and come back to it, you know, so we'll see how it goes. But I'm definitely committed to it. But you know, I think writers just have to keep writing, you know, we rejection or acceptance, it doesn't, it shouldn't really determine, you know, what you do or don't do next, just keep making stuff.

Jennifer Logue:

Sticks, what have you learned from starting at the bottom of industry? Any lessons?

Christian Carl:

I think it's this, it's the same thing I learned starting at the bottom of, you know, another one, like, you just got to keep, you know, keep going, you know, keep can't give up. Like I've emailed, I won't, I won't say who, because I'll be respectful. But I've emailed the same editor at a massively huge publishing house, probably seven times in the last four months since the books were sent to her by request of the CEO of that publishing company. And I'm gonna send another one next week and another one next week and another one next week. And it's like, I'll either hear, leave me alone, or I'll hear let's talk or whatever. So, I'm kinda like, you know, I'm not gonna let rejection stop me from pushing forward. And I'm also not going to hang everything I can on one thing, you know,

Jennifer Logue:

sometimes having other irons in the fire, takes the pressure off, and then it opens up.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, yeah, I've got like a book called pig in a snowstorm that I just finished not too long ago, that's really cute. And I'm excited to kind of see if I can put that together and maybe put a second book out, you know, completely different world in a different, different story. So I'm definitely, you know, continuing to explore other paths at the same time?

Jennifer Logue:

Cool. How do you balance work family, your creative projects, your own art?

Christian Carl:

Well, for a long time, I just didn't sleep. And that wasn't. So I didn't have a balance, I would literally just work all day and into the night. And then I would carve out space for my family and not enough, you know, really, you know, I worked. I worked probably too much. And then like, I didn't want to shortchange other people's. So, you know, I would kind of wait till everybody was asleep, and then I'd stay up all night, you know, and work on my own projects. So when I made my record, you know, it was 11 at night till four in the morning for three. I wrote the children's books, it was 11 at night to avoid, you know, like, and then I, you know, and I, at some point kind of was like, you know, this isn't healthy, and I wouldn't recommend that to anybody. I think it's picking and choosing, you know, what you take on and don't take on, you know, and so I've really hard for me to say no to anything, you know, like when someone wants me to help them with something or work on something or hey, I got an idea you want to do with me? I just want to say yes to everybody. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah. And it's a part of why I've been successful because I like to say yes, but it's also I've learned, you know, the hard way through, you know, you know, just not taking good enough care of myself that learning to say no and knowing when to say when and, and being okay with not being amazing at everything you do you know is that's probably a really big valuable lesson to any When young going into the business, like everything doesn't have to be amazing and everything can't be, you know. So I'm doing much better with that. And so my advice would be, give yourself a break. You know, and it's okay, everything isn't amazing. But yeah, Am I really a terrible person to, you know, teach other people how to find balance? I would be totally honest, like I haven't, you know, I actually think, since I, since I've gone from 160, I'm starting to see that balance, you know, and leaving kind of a traditional kind of advertising world, the balance is more possible, it's a tough industry to find balance, in all honesty, and no one would deny that who's in it, you know. And, you know, as I was, you know, working into my second and third year, 160, over 90, I was very cognizant of the shift and change in, you know, work life balance expectations. And, you know, it's not how I grew up in advertising, that you say yes to everything and work your tail off. So you can be invaluable. It doesn't, that doesn't fly, you know, with, with younger talent, and the new generations coming into the industry. And I think it's really important that the industry recognizes that and that the leaders who grew up in a, you know, you work yourself to the bone to prove yourself, and that's how you, that's how you're relevant and valued. As a as a needs a real reversal, you know, and a real recognition that that's just not how it works anymore. And, you know, I was smart enough, and, you know, aware enough to recognize that, you know, and tried to create a culture that understood, where all generations were coming from and adapted to it. But I'd say, you know, that's probably the number one thing that advertising could get better at, is allowing a balance, you know, and people's work and live, because it's a, it's a constant struggle, you know, and

Jennifer Logue:

how do you see advertising evolving over the next 10 years?

Christian Carl:

Yeah, well, I mean, I hope it kind of evolves in some way. And I don't know if this makes sense, but evolves by devolving a little bit. I think building something over time is so important, you know, building relationships over time, you know, building an idea over time allowing things to become what they're supposed to become, and I think we're in a get famous quick world right now. And I know, that's a part of the reality of what people want and, but, but nothing replaces consistency, you know, and, and commitment to something, you know, people value and honor commitment to things. And I think, you know, if you want to be continuously relevant, you have to be committed, you know, to something long term. So, I do hope that the, however technology evolves, whoever's writing it, whether we are, you know, AI is or I mean, like, I mean, all that, you know, whatever happens is going to happen, and, you know, the people who are open minded are going to adapt and be relevant, I'm not worried about, you know, computers, replacing humans, and, you know, like all that, and if it happens, I guess there'll be other stuff we do, I don't know. I'm not really that into, like, trying to figure out, you know, what's going to happen 10 years from now, but I do think, you know, a commitment to, like, commitment is something the industry is missing. I mean, the average tenure of a CMO is like, you know, two days now, you know, exaggerating, but, you know, like, no one stays anywhere that long, you know, like, there's a lot of turnover there's a lot of like, well, they're not good enough yet. Let's just get someone who's good enough now. You know, like, like, people don't work with talent and try to make them better they just replace them for someone who's better because they don't have the time you know, there's just a lot of hurry that everybody's in and, and I understand the demand understand the way social media is kind of dictating you know, the likes are important and shares and earned media and, and I'm not trying to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but I think it's very apparent that, you know, the brands that are going to remain relevant over time are the ones that are consistent over time. You know, I don't think brands like Patagonia are gonna go anywhere, they're gonna continue to be relevant because they're consistent. You know, and they do their fair share of things that make people go holy crap, I can't believe that he did that. But they, they also consistently do all the other things they need to do. You know, and they're not looking for the home run, you know, I think like, you know, singles, I'm sorry, terrible sports analogy, but like, just continue to, like, hit the ball, you know, and you get home around once in a while, and that'll be awesome. But it's not going to save you every time. You know. So I'm, I'm very much a believer in the industry, recommitting itself to repetition and consistency. I just in my experience I worked on you know, and for companies that did stuff like flow and progressive, I didn't work on it, but you know, Arnold, I was there and grew up, you know, kind of cut my teeth at Arnold where, you know, that campaign has been around forever, because it just, you know, it's, it's, they've stuck with something, you know, and even the most interesting man in the world, you know, it lost relevance and understood that, but it stuck with something, and you know, and it worked. And he got the guys in the Cranberry Bog, which I was fortunate enough to work on that a little bit at Arnold, you know, like, it was a 10 year Cafe lasted a decade. And like, you know, like,

Jennifer Logue:

it works with you finally, like,

Christian Carl:

you know, and it's usually like year two, that everyone's like, Oh, we gotta get rid of this. It's old, I'm bored of it, you know, and it's like, anyone who fights through year two and sticks around for a year three, they find out the year four or 5678 Everything's incredible, you know, like sales double and triple and things just keep moving forward. So I believe in you know, stunts and things that get pressed and you know, you got to earn media, obviously, no one's willing to spend as much on media, but it can't be at the sacrifice of, you know, being committed and dedicated to a point of view. Now, consistently over time, it's how anything time and pressure, Shawshank Redemption,

Jennifer Logue:

I feel like music, I mean, you gotta have a hook, keep the hook, see, remember it,

Christian Carl:

you know, what is pop music, but the same thing over and over again, only different. That's the, that's the mark of a great campaign, it's the same story told 1000 times. You know, it's just a, you've created a big enough world to contain endless stories, but they're all the same stories. My campaign I did for University of Arizona was, you know, you could tell 47,000 students different stories through that same lens, and every story would be different. But you could do it forever, and it would never be boring, you know? And so those are the things that work. You know, so yeah, I think I'd love to see that. Find Its Way back a little bit, just commitment, you know, commitment to a point of view, you know,

Jennifer Logue:

what's next for you, Christian?

Christian Carl:

Well, I'm really excited to be on my own, for the first time, and this is my 32nd year, I think, in advertising. And like, I have never taken time off. I've never had more than a week between jobs, I've never lost a job, you know, I've never not had a job, you know, for a company or an agency. And I've just never really stopped to know what it's like to kind of have, you know, a chance to figure out what I want to do, you know, and to be, you know, more in control of, you know, where I'm headed. So there's a lot of things you know, I always got my, I've got a lot of things I love to do. So, I know, I'm I think directing is something I'm kind of interested in thinking about. I mean, I've been, you know, on hundreds of shoots in Edit rooms for I've probably done the 10,000 hours on just about anything to do with, you know, production. Now, I've just made enough things to and I think I could I think that's a world I could go into and I would really love to kind of be a writer director potentially. So that's one avenue I'm going to explore. The other is to just devote myself completely to like children's education and to kind of sharpen my my world of freelance and In my, my world of outside projects, you know, to, you know, solely focusing on children's education. That's awesome. Yeah, like Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, you know, Morgan Freeman from the electric company, like they, you know, they were my inspiration from very early years. Like, they were my best friends, you know, like, I loved them, you know, and I like, just the impact that Fred Rogers had, you know, on, on people and his land of make believe, you know, I always say, my, like, I'm kind of developing this new point of view over time around, you know, make believe makes believers and I, I think, like, you know, I think his land of make believe made a believer in me that, you know, little fiction with our realities, is a way that invites people in opens people's minds, you know, creates, you know, creates more connection. So, I'm just, like, kind of a kid at heart in many ways. So, and, you know, I love the three that I've helped raise over, however many years now, and I loved it. When I was a school teacher. I those readings are the most satisfying thing I've ever done as a professional in my life. You know, going into those schools and reading the kids. There's just no better feeling. Christian, thank

Jennifer Logue:

you so much for appearing on creative space. Oh, my gosh, so much knowledge. And, you know, inspiration.

Christian Carl:

Yeah, well, thank you. It was great. Really? Yeah, I'm happy I could be a part of it. And yeah, thanks.

Jennifer Logue:

For more on Christian Carl, visit the Christian karl.com. And for more on land of lots, visit the land of lots.com. And thank you so much for tuning in and growing in creativity with us. I'd love to know what you thought of today's episode. What you found most interesting what you found most helpful. You can reach out to me on social media at Jennifer Logue or leave a review for creative space on Apple podcasts so more people can discover it. I appreciate you so much for being here in the beginning stages of this. My name is Jennifer Logue and thanks for listening to this episode of creative space. Until next time,