Academy Award Winner John DeNicola On Co-Writing the Iconic Song from ‘Dirty Dancing’ and the Art of Collaboration

On today’s episode of Creative Space, we have the pleasure of speaking with Academy Award-winning songwriter and producer John DeNicola. Without a doubt, you know his work, as he co-wrote the iconic song, “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life” from the iconic film that we all know and love, Dirty Dancing. Through his record label, Omad Records, he’s also nurtured the careers of up and coming artists, like Kara’s Flowers, who would go on to become Maroon 5.

John goes into depth about his creative journey that led him to team up with Franke Previte and Donald Markowitz to write the iconic song from Dirty Dancing. We also discuss the art of collaboration and how John has never felt more creative than now. 

For more on John DeNicola visit: john-denicola.com.

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SHOW NOTES:

0:00—Introduction

2:00—Growing up in a creative Italian-American family

3:00—”He sounds like he’d be good on guitar…”

4:15— I never had a question that I was going to do music 

6:30—Picking three LPs from his cousin’s one-stop 

7:35—Working with Peter Lewis of Moby Grape

8:30—Getting signed to Motown as the bassist in Flight

9:26—Rehearsing 6 days a week, 6 hours a day 

10:20—John’s songwriting beginnings 

11:00—Teaming up with Franke Previte on “Hungry Eyes”

11:50—Dirty Dancing and co-writing “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life”

17:06—The most important lessons about songwriting collaboration

20:50—If you’re an artist and it’s your calling, nothing is going to stop you

24:45—John’s definition of creativity

27:37—Shakespeare in the Valley and letting it flow 

30:50—Drawing inspiration from Tame Impala and Alex G

32:45—John’s first experience recording as an artist

40:14—The fear and/or excitement of the blank page 

41:36—Why “(I’ve Had)The Time of My Life” is so uplifting musically

44:10—Taking off the blindfold and seeing the world as it is

47:32—Why records are a better experience for the listener

49:53—What’s next

BONUS:

51:34—Discovering Kara's Flowers (soon to become Maroon 5)

Transcript

Jennifer Logue: 0:11

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Creative Space, a podcast where we explore, learn and grow in creativity together. I'm your host, jennifer Logue, and today we have the pleasure of speaking with Academy Award-winning songwriter and producer, john DiNicola. Without a doubt, you know his work as he co-wrote the iconic song I've had the Time of my Life from the iconic film that we all know and love, dirty Dancing. Through his record label, omad Records, he's also nurtured the careers of up-and-coming artists like Karis Flowers, who would go on to become Maroon 5. Welcome to Creative Space, john.

John DeNicola: 0:53

Oh hi, Jennifer, Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Logue: 0:56

It's great to have you here and I think we actually met years ago at Steve's studio. Steve Adabo, shelter Island. Yes.

John DeNicola: 1:06

Shelter Island. I am recalling that, yes, it goes back many years, though. What would that be?

Jennifer Logue: 1:14

It was a long time ago. It was a decade ago.

John DeNicola: 1:17

10 years, probably 10 years, right yeah, as I said, time does fly. Time does fly when you're having fun.

Jennifer Logue: 1:22

Yes, yes, it does does fly when you're having fun. Yes, yes, it does, and right now you're calling from your studio.

John DeNicola: 1:29

Yes, in upstate New York. I also have a studio on 36th Street in Manhattan, a recording studio there too. But I've been here for the last couple of years during COVID. We just came up here and we've parked ourselves here. We have a farm that we've had for many, many years and, you know, it's just kind of an oasis.

Jennifer Logue: 1:55

That's awesome, so let's just jump right into it. How did you first get your start in music? Did you come from a musical family?

John DeNicola: 2:05

Well, I came from a real working class family. My mom was a homemaker and my dad was a bricklayer oh wow. But there was always, you know, art around the house. My mom painted, she did paintings, she did upholstery, she made you know, at the time she made my Nehru jackets and she also played piano by ear. And my dad, you know, was creative too. It's a creative family. You know bunch of, you know, italian Americans. So there was a lot of music in the house. My dad was big into music. He had tape machines and you know he listened on tape back then which was like reel to reel tape. So he was really into audio and sonics and somehow it rubbed off on me.

John DeNicola: 3:05

We were living in Amityville, new York, and I was in the basement. I was probably I had to be six, seven, eight years old, maybe nine, and my brother had a harmony guitar, acoustic guitar, and I remember, you know I didn't know what I was doing with my left hand, so I was, you know, just plucking the notes with my right hand, plucking the strings, and I remember hearing my mom upstairs go he sounds like he'd be good on guitar. And the fact that I remember that you know this many years later is kind of astounding, but it definitely had an impact. You know, I don't, I never had a question that I was going to do music. I can remember hearing and again, I was young, hearing Pretty Woman on the radio. You know Roy Orbison's version, and I was like what that is, just you know, lyrically, the guitar riff, the lyric, the unrequited love, and then at the end she's coming back, you know.

John DeNicola: 4:20

So, as a you know, elementary school kid, I just I was just floored by that. I don't think I ever had. I started taking guitar lessons way back then and we moved to another place in New York, on Long Island Centerport, and I met these two guys who were just as into music as I, was Awesome. They had a Fender Deluxe Reverb and they had a couple of Gretsch guitars and we started a band. As I said, I never turned back. I was lucky that I did become successful, because I don't know what I would have done, because that was my dream the whole time and it was just an innate thing. I just recognized that man, that's what I need to do music.

Jennifer Logue: 5:18

This is what I'm here to do, so that's so cool, and to know young as well.

John DeNicola: 5:24

To know what.

Jennifer Logue: 5:25

When you're young.

John DeNicola: 5:26

Oh yeah, no, I know I feel lucky in that way because you know a lot of people you know have to kind of as they experience things and they figure out what they might want to do. I knew all along, I knew I didn't know I was going to end up a songwriter per se. I didn't know I was going to end up a songwriter per se Because I met those guys, two brothers, john and Ken Favre, f-a-v-r-e, and I kind of switched to bass at that moment, yeah, and then I kind of worked as a bass player for many years and then you know, then you know one thing led to another. I went through a musical journey, I would say. I mean, and and her had a what they call a one-stop, uh, which is um, where mom and pop stores would go for distribution of lps. So once one stop has deals with all the um distribution, you know the Columbia's and the Sony's and the RCA's, and they're a one stop for mom and pop stores to come and buy. Oh OK, they're like a middleman kind of.

John DeNicola: 6:59

And my mom took me there. I was 12 years old and my mom took me there and said you know, you can go in. They had this garage full of LPs and this is 1967. So she said I could have three LPs. So I walked in there and I picked up Mr Fantasy by Traffic, you know. Steve Winwood, jimi Hendrix, are you Experienced?

Jennifer Logue: 7:26

Oh cool.

John DeNicola: 7:27

And Moby Grape, the first Moby Grape record, and that, you know, blew my mind, those three records. I'm still working with one of the members of Moby Grape, peter Lewis. We're just finishing up a record. He's. He's a really talented and a unique talent in that even into his age not not every artist can continue to sort of be contemporary and interesting. And you know, neil Young is a great example. He does it beautifully, you know, you listen to him. Neil Young thing, you don't go, oh, that's a's a guy, you know, he's just barely there. I mean, he's still creating great music. So, uh, not everybody can do it. Peter's, I put him in that category, he can. I put him into neil young. I think he's that good.

John DeNicola: 8:17

But, um, and then I, then I in, like high school, I started discovering, discovering Frank Zappa and Weather Report and Jazz Fusion stuff, and I'm trying to think of the chronology here. But then I was in a cover band just out of high school that did, uh, r&b ish, well, at the time before disco, okay, there was, you know, barry white wasn't disco barry, it was soul r&b. You know. And you know, uh, you're from philly, I right, yes, you know the whole stylistics, that, that whole thing. You know it became disco, but it was really just soul R&B music and so we did that. That's what our cover band did. We had a great singer. This is like when I was in my 20s and then, I guess, that disbanded and then I got called to do a jazz fusion record. I went to Berklee College of Music for a year.

Jennifer Logue: 9:29

Oh cool.

John DeNicola: 9:30

And then I got called to do this jazz fusion record as a bass player and the band was called Flight and we were signed to Motown Records.

Jennifer Logue: 9:41

Yes, I've read that. Yeah to Motown.

John DeNicola: 9:44

Records. Yes, I've read that. Yeah, it's so cool. And we used to. You know, we rehearsed six days a week, six hours a day, and it was all about chops, you know. Yes, and, funny enough, erykah Badu sampled one of our songs for her big hit back in the day big hit back in the day, and so, and then after that, I kind of got into rock bands and pop music.

John DeNicola: 10:14

I kind of did a hard turn out of the fusion thing and was in bands that needed original material. So, you know, somebody had to start writing. So I started writing. You know, didn't really? We? Well, we were managed by Tommy Mottola for a short time. We, you know, we almost had a record deal, one of those things. And that's where I met David Prater. We lost our drummer, this band, pantera, and we were introduced.

John DeNicola: 10:41

It might even be that Tommy Mottola introduced me to David Prater, and David Prater was a drummer, he's a producer. He went on to produce a lot of different bands, but so, okay, so then I started working with that same band, I guess, and I had a track of music and it was. I started working withid prater at his recording studio in montclair, new jersey. Okay, and and um, at the same time, frankie previtt, who was from a band called frankie and the knockouts they had a couple of top 20 hits and and frankie had gotten dropped from his record label was looking for material to get new songs for himself, right? So David said, hey, there's this track that John DeNicola is working on and he played it for Frankie and Frankie loved it, and that was Hungry Eyes. That was the first song I wrote with Frankie was Hungry Eyes, but it was for Frankie, it wasn't necessarily for Dirty Dancing.

Jennifer Logue: 11:48

Okay, so how did that come about then? How did Hungry Eyes end up in the running for the Dirty Dancing soundtrack, which we'll talk more about?

John DeNicola: 12:01

I've had the talk of my life where I'd have to enter in because while I was working with Frankie, once we got that song written, we started writing other stuff, all again for Frankie to get a record deal. And during that time Jimmy Einer called Frankie. Frankie used to be on Jimmy's record label, millennium. And so Jimmy called Frankie and said, listen, we need a song for the final scene in this movie, dirty Dancing. And Frankie was like Jimmy, I'm trying to get this record done, I'm trying to get a record deal. He goes no, no, you got to listen to me, it's a good little movie. This will change your life. I'm trying to get a record deal. He goes no, no, you got to listen to me, it's a good little movie. You know this will change your life. And so you know he gave Frankie Now, it wasn't like we had the gig it was you know it was a free for all.

John DeNicola: 13:02

You know songwriters, you know we need a song for this movie. So you know, uh, I, frankie told me that they gave him a brief of what it was. You know this dance instructor, you know, gets accused of sealing wallets and it's the big comes back at the end. And you know it was minimal, uh, information, but they did. They did reference two songs. One was a?

John DeNicola: 13:21

Um, a blues brother song, and I can't recall the name of it, which was an odd one to me. And the other one was make more sense was the Irene Cara. Um, um, what a feeling. So they wanted it to start slow and then get into things. So, so, um, frankie gave me that and I at the time I was working with a guy named Don Markowitz, and Donnie had an 8-track tape machine and he had a DMX drum machine and I'm thinking, well, this is a dance tune, I'll go over with Donnie and we're going to track some ideas. And so Donnie and I worked on the music and came up with basically what you hear musically and we gave it to Frank, and Frank wrote lyrics and implied melodies and stuff like that. So that became the time of my life. So they were filming out of sequence. We're jumping right in here. Is that okay?

Jennifer Logue: 14:16

Oh, that is fine. I mean, I like to go with the flow of these interviews.

John DeNicola: 14:21

Okay, so, and so they, they were dancing to a Lionel richie song which they didn't want to use. They, you know, they wanted to use an original song and um, we, you know, as the story goes, they played like 150 songs and you know, we were like one of the last cassettes that they put in the machine this is back in the day of cassettes and um, they put it in the machine and they all freaked.

John DeNicola: 14:50

They said oh my gosh they all looked at each other and you know, like, are we desperate or is this like the perfect song? Is this the song we're looking for? And um, and actually they filmed the next day and they used our demo because they didn't have the, you know, the, the final yet. So they used our demo. So when you see Patrick kind of mouthing the words, it's to Frankie's voice. Frankie sang with with Rochelle Capelli was the female version for the duet version um, um for the duet and um, you know, they just they just freaked out and and that was that. Uh, they did have a. We had to slow it down a little bit and you know, there was a couple of twists and turns and and we went into the studio and tweaked it and did this and that, and then, after that was solidly, and they, they went in the next day and film to that, to the, to to the demo we had, and they said, but we also need a song. They called us in that. We said we need a scene for this. I mean, you had a song for this other scene.

John DeNicola: 15:58

And they, we went in and we were looking at the scene and it was actually I carried a watermelon coming into which ended up being Love man and Do you Love Me? You know that scene, but that's where. And we gave them hungry eyes for that scene. They said, well, it doesn't really work here, but we have it in this other part. You know that I think it'll work well. So that's how D dirty dancing made it into the movie. So it was because of the time of my life that they listened to dirty dancing. So time of my life was written for the movie and hungry eyes was actually written before that. You know, one of the weird things about right in the time of my life was that it was uh, they told us it needed to be eight minutes long, eight minutes.

Jennifer Logue: 16:46

Yeah, well, that's in the time of my life was that it was.

John DeNicola: 16:47

They told us it needed to be eight minutes long. Eight minutes, yeah. Well, that's in the movie.

Jennifer Logue: 16:49

It's eight minutes.

John DeNicola: 16:50

Oh, that's true, there's all that dancing and all that. So we were like I'll steal a line from Frankie. So we had well, we have to write MacArthur Park here.

Jennifer Logue: 17:00

You know on the subject of collaboration, you know what are the most important lessons you've learned about the art of songwriting collaboration.

John DeNicola: 17:12

Wow, that's a good question, let's see. Well, you know I'm very, you know I'm easy to get along with, being willing to bend your thoughts what you thought it should be and what it ends up being. I think you have to this person or that person that somehow immediately translates in my head. I've done a lot of listening in my lifetime to all kinds of music and I'll just pick up a keyboard or a guitar and I'll put myself in that person's head and I'll say what would this person say sound like to me? You know, what would they want to sing? What would, what kind of? What melody would? Because I'm more on the music side.

John DeNicola: 18:20

So I just start building tracks and so a lot of the times I'm sending a pretty good I won't even call it a scratch track, it's better. You know, it's a pretty fleshed out recording of an idea with a melody and possibly a couple of lyrics or a chorus lyric, and I'll send that to whoever I'm writing with and more times than none it's a pure lyricist. Sometimes it's a musician who also does lyrics, but for the most part it's like that. So I work with people I really know and like, so I can easily say you know what I don't like that. Can we change this? So lessons learned I don't know if I can impart any lessons per se to know that it's a creative process and it's something you're doing together and you know you can't be headstrong yet you have to be open to the other person's ideas, otherwise what's what's the point? You know?

Jennifer Logue: 19:30

Cool, and I think it's also knowing your strengths and matching up with people who fill in where your skill set is lower, you know.

John DeNicola: 19:40

Right For sure, my flow is much better than it used to be, and I don't love sitting in a room with my co-writer. I'm sorry, I just don't. I mean, sometimes I do, but most of the time I don't. I want to flesh out an idea and then I want somebody to help me finish it.

Jennifer Logue: 20:07

Yes, so you start with the music, then you send the music to your collaborator.

John DeNicola: 20:13

Now, that's not always the case. Recently on my last record, keith Reed, who wrote Whiter Shade of Pale and a lot of Procol Harum songs he's purely a lyricist and I asked Keith, I said you know, do you have a lyric? And he sent me a lyric, complete lyric, and I just put that. You know, I just went with that and put it straight to music and it came out really good. I'm really happy with it. It's on my last record.

Jennifer Logue: 20:43

She Said Very cool which you released over the summer, and we'll get more into that later in the interview. But do you have any advice for people today who are starting out as artists, as songwriters, like how has the industry changed over the years from your perspective?

John DeNicola: 21:00

Oh, wow, I feel bad. I feel bad. You know one word streaming. Streaming has destroyed us. I mean it's I don't know if we can come back from it or not.

John DeNicola: 21:15

I mean, you know, frankie, and I Frankie Previta and I often talk about how we kind of got in right under the bar there because you know people were still buying LPs and CDs. You know which people you know the artists can or the songwriter in our case can actually make money from. You know, I'll get, I can get six, uh, 12 million streams in a quarter, so three months, and I'll you know I'll get like four or five hundred dollars, I mean six hundred dollars for 12 million streams. You know, and I know a band, a band starting out right, who would be thrilled to have 200,000 streams. You know what are they going to get. You know, 50 cents a dollar, five dollars. There's just, there's no way you can live. Now. You have to look at recording an album as sort of a promotional item that you hope you can sell. If you play live, you can sell it, lover, and you want to support the artist that you love. Buy a CD or an LP or download their record from their website or whatever, because that's the only way they're going to see money.

John DeNicola: 22:50

The streaming, as of now. Hopefully it gets better. It got a little better recently. Hopefully it gets better. It got a little better recently, but it's still. You know, the songwriter particularly is the bottom of the totem pole in the spotify world and apple world. I mean, they just they don't. You know apple itunes used to pay. Well, that was good because people were downloading a song.

John DeNicola: 23:13

Yes, you know, now it's apple music it's. You know they pay a little better than spotify, but it's all um. You know, peanuts I mean, it's not enough to sustain so to make a life out of right, but if you're an artist I mean, if you're an artist and and it's your calling you know nothing's gonna stop you it goes the motorcycle it was loud right, yeah, it was loud. You know, nothing's gonna stop you. You know what I mean.

John DeNicola: 23:44

Nothing was gonna stop me yes, you know, and it's a, it's kind of a calling, it's something that's in your soul that needs to get out. You know, even if it ends up being, uh, you know, maybe it's not a giant moneymaker, but it's an outlet and maybe it could be, you know, you could also get lucky and fall into a movie, like I did. You know what I mean. That's still a possibility and you can make a lot of money with that. So you know, film and TV and stuff like that is still viable. So I mean, to me it's like if you're a musician or a songwriter or an artist, doesn't matter what I say, you're going to do it. You know, if you're going to be compelled I was compelled I happen to be loving it more than ever now.

Jennifer Logue: 24:37

Yes. Another question I have for you is I ask this of everyone on the podcast Okay, what is your definition of creativity?

John DeNicola: 24:48

Wow, that's a good one too, digging deep into your soul and psyche and bringing it out. And bringing it out, and you know, I say you know, don't be afraid to lay it on the line. I say that but you know, many years I was afraid. You know it's scary. You're putting yourself, you're putting your creativity in front of everyone to see. So you know, it's a little like being, you know, naked. You know it's like people are going to judge it. You know, and look at it and judge it, and so it's. It's just digging down into your and it could be like you said before. It could be, uh, creating a great plate of food, or you know something great to eat, or you know it's just letting that side of your brain run wild and, uh, and and tap into it. If you can let it out, I mean hungry eyes musically on on my Roland Juno 106, was written in musically. It was written in 10 to 15 minutes.

Jennifer Logue: 26:06

Wow, I was wondering about that it just played itself down.

John DeNicola: 26:11

I just went, sat at the piano, got this new sound going not piano at the Juno 106, and you know glung,6 and you know, and I just it just fell out and I think that's. You know. Writers will say sometimes that happens, you know it's. It's like a, a stream of consciousness, it's like something that you tap into from all your years of preparation and listening and digesting, all those years of playing the bass parts in those great R&B songs back when I was 20 years old in that band, learning those songs. That all goes into your in there, you know, into your computer brain, there, you know, into your computer brain. And you know creativity is sort of the regurgitation of all those things and letting it go unfettered. And you know, as I said, I started with this early with music. So I think that side of my brain is really developed as opposed to the other side of the brain. So I've always felt creative, although I guess I feel more creative now. I feel I find myself and I don't know.

John DeNicola: 27:36

I started to mention when I did the Shakespeare in the Valley, which was with my son and it was from his years, when he was 12 to 19. And I took it on to be the music director for the plays. And the plays weren't just Shakespeare, they were Shakespeare but they were put in different time periods. So, like Romeo and Juliet was 1830s, new Orleans, or we did, cymbeline was post-apocalyptic, modern times, and the director would pick six spots where there would be a song. Um, and this was all done in a month's time.

John DeNicola: 28:25

So we had to write, you know, come up with a concept, write the songs, teach it to the kids, wow in in, you know, in 30 days, and and I worked with my friend, patty Maloney as the lyricist and we've discussed this, both of us it really because you had to write six songs quickly and get them done and you didn't have time to think too much about it and just had to get it out there because the kids were waiting. And, um, we, the exercise of that, uh, really improved. Patty will say the same thing it proved that stream of consciousness that I feel like I, we tapped into. I tapped into. That allows me to, um, you know, sort of let it flow. I would say that, let it flow, stream of consciousness, I don't think.

John DeNicola: 29:26

I don't think when I write, yeah, there's no there's no thinking and and it's interestingly because I get like hungry eyes I I didn't know it, but there's key changes. You know kind of odd key changes, but it's just stuff that just you know flowed out. It just flowed out. If I thought about it, I wouldn't have made that key change. You know what.

Jennifer Logue: 29:52

I mean If I was thinking Because you get in your own way, you overthink.

John DeNicola: 29:55

You do, you do. You can't overthink. And creative process you asked about that. I think thinking is the wrong thing.

Jennifer Logue: 30:03

Yes.

John DeNicola: 30:04

Flow is the word you want. Just let it flow be open, let it flow, be open and conscious of what's around you and filter. You're a filter, in a way.

Jennifer Logue: 30:17

And filter. You're a filter in a way, yes, and it's also interesting. All of your as you were saying earlier all of your experiences in life, whether it's playing music or even your life experiences we're all these unique filters through which creativity can flow through, and if we let that happen, there's so many magical things we can bring forth into the world bring forth into the world.

John DeNicola: 30:36

You know, and it's because of that intake that you're able to have something to draw upon.

Jennifer Logue: 30:44

Yes, for sure. Awesome answer, john. Thank you for that. So you released a single. Now, getting to your own music, you released a single this summer that passed, she Said, and you channeled a new sound for yourself. You drew influences from Tim Impala and Alex G, and you worked with your son a little bit too.

John DeNicola: 31:09

Yeah, oh well, you can see it but the audience can't see. But those are the two records behind me the why? Because? Was the record before she Said behind me the why? Because? Was the record before she said it?

John DeNicola: 31:23

And after many years of being in the business as a songwriter or bass player or whatever, for some reason or another, I think when I got this new studio up in the barn here uh, my son, just I we just set up some mics and put a drum track down and I started working on a song that was in a movie called Avenging Angelo, a Sylvester Stallone movie, and the song was called You're the Only One. It was in the movie but it never. Steve Holy sang it in the movie. He was a country artist, but it was never released. The movie was, but the song was never released anywhere. So nobody, you know, it was just in the movie, if you happened to see it. So I always thought, well, that's a great song, I think somebody could cover that again. Yeah, and I always heard it kind of with strings and horns and, you know, a full blown thing. So I create in my new studio here in the upstate, I recorded the track the way I wanted to hear it.

John DeNicola: 32:26

And when it came time to find someone to sing, I thought well, you know what? Who am I going to get? Let me, I'll just try it myself. And I did it and I enjoyed it and I played it for people and they liked it. So I put together that snowballed and I put together a record of and, mind you, this is the first time I'm myself as an artist, right, I've always been a sideman or a songwriter for somebody, man or a songwriter for somebody.

John DeNicola: 33:00

And that record was I looked to see what other songs I had written for other people that I thought I could sing myself. I never thought of myself as a singer per se. You know, I sang backup for bands and stuff like that. But you know, the last time I ever sang like a lead vocal, I was 20 years old maybe and um. So I found enough songs to do the why? Because that was my first record and it was, uh, all songs. You know, song I had written with john wait. Um, you know the, either songs I had written for people that were actually covered or songs I had written for people that weren't covered, you know. But there were songs written for other people.

John DeNicola: 33:38

You know, I had to include Hungry Eyes and I asked my son, how could I approach that? I mean, how am I going to do that song? And you know, and his suggestion was that you know, bands like you mentioned earlier they're kind of they draw upon an 80s synth, synth pop sensibility, and he said, approach it like that. And so he played drums because he was familiar with that kind of stuff. So so we did hungry eyes and then then it was like, well, okay, that I like the way that came out. How am I going to do the time of my life? I mean, this is an iconic song that's known the world over how am I going to do that? And uh, I thought, well, maybe I won to do that. And I thought, well, maybe I won't do it. And then I thought, well, let me just try it with just an acoustic guitar and a couple of French horns. And that's how I ended up doing it. Just a verse, chorus, bridge out. It closes the album. That was a long-winded way to say that.

John DeNicola: 34:38

The she Said record, the second record that I've done, was my first record that I wrote for me as an artist. So it's a collection of songs. Again, I just picked that Juno 106, that same Juno 106 and set it up here and just started, just started laying down tracks and and then singing melodies and getting some lyrical ideas and then pulling in different writers, as I mentioned Keith Reed on one of the songs and Patty Maloney again. Also Frankie Previtt, but and when I played it back, like she said, the song, I noticed and I didn't expect there's a real sort of 60s, 70s, almost Philly, soul melody, soul melody. You know that, that. You know all that, all that stuff I took in as a 20 year old playing in those bands. You know, not that I think it sounds like that, but I hear the influence. You know I'm, hopefully, I think it's, you know, hopefully it's, it's more modern sounding than that. But I was a little surprised that that influence would be on a lot of, like a handful, four or five of the songs, just kind of prominent.

Jennifer Logue: 36:06

It's part of you. You know it's inevitable it's going to sneak out in a great way.

John DeNicola: 36:11

Yeah, well, that's just it. The beauty of it for me was I revealed to myself who I am as an artist. You put it down on tape and you put it out into the world, and that's you right. I was never an artist before. So you listen to that record and I'm very happy with both of them. I would say it's the most fun I've ever had. It's the most fun, just just you know, I never knew how much fun that would be, because now, all of a sudden, I don't have to. I'm not worried about what this person might sing or want want to sing. I'm just doing what I want to do and, and you know, track wise, I've set myself up up here. I have, you know, a B3, I have a piano, I have too many guitars, I have marimbas, I have sitar.

Jennifer Logue: 37:13

Oh, that's so cool.

John DeNicola: 37:14

I have a bass clarinet, I have a soprano sax and you know I can put across what I want to put across with all those instruments. I'm a good bass player Everything else I just put it across what I'm looking to get across. So I don't want to. You know it's a I hate to use the word man cave, but because it's not what it is, but it explains it a little bit. It's like I come out here and go to work and get lost.

Jennifer Logue: 37:46

Yes, and the inspiration. It's interesting Now. You said earlier that you feel more creative now than you ever felt before, and it's like now that you're an artist, not just giving voice to other people. Now you're giving voice to you, John.

John DeNicola: 38:04

And that feels good, although actually I started working with Peter Lewis from Moby Grape. We had four songs left over from his last record and then I started writing with him, him in mind, but somehow it had altered now. Now it was like I think it's because we're kind of close musically, you know, headspace wise, so everything I was sending him he was like, yeah, I love it, I love it, I'm gonna work on it, you know, and he's such a great lyricist, so, so, um, but I don't know the creative flow. I partly it's being my own artist that that has allowed that to flow, and also that exercise I did with, uh, shakespeare, just just being under the gun and and um, and it was like I said, it was various types of music, so just being all over the map musically, which I was always kind of a chameleon anyway, musically, I could always fit in, you know in different genres.

John DeNicola: 39:11

Yeah, pretty easily.

Jennifer Logue: 39:12

Yeah, steve said something on his episode. Like you know, a true artist sits down and gets it done. You know, like we were talking about songwriters in Nashville how you just go in you don't know if you have something until you just quit.

John DeNicola: 39:26

That's brave, see, that's brave, that's bravery. I haven't done enough of that. Somehow I fear it. I don't know why I somehow I fear it. I don't know why, but I, I I'm less afraid of it now because I feel like the. You know, I feel like I've opened a flow in me. So yeah. It's an odd feeling to you know, maybe you don't even know the person too well.

Jennifer Logue: 39:53

Right, you're going to sit down and we're gonna start undressing, yeah just collaborating, yeah, I think just connecting on a human level, yeah, like there's universal truths, you know, and, um, I guess it depends on who you're working with too, but but you know it's, it's a blank page, the blank page. I get excited by the blank page. I don't know.

John DeNicola: 40:26

It's a little intimidating, but I guess you know if you don't put the pressure on yourself, yeah, no-transcript, and it's a good song. It ends up being a good song. Is there a better feeling than that.

Jennifer Logue: 40:54

Oh, there is no better feeling. There's no better feeling.

John DeNicola: 40:57

No, it's like you know, for us, you know, with these Dirty Dancing songs, it's who would have ever imagined.

Jennifer Logue: 41:08

And you're touching the lives of so many people. You know that song comes on. You know at a wedding, or you know at a karaoke night or something it just you know makes everyone just lift up.

John DeNicola: 41:21

And it could be anywhere in the world. Just about you know what I mean. It could be anywhere. It could be in South America, it could be in, you know, philippines. I mean everybody knows it and everybody gets the same feeling from it.

John DeNicola: 41:36

It's a euphoric chorus, you know. We lucked out, you know, on that song, of course Frankie did a wonderful job lyrically. But there's something in that, you know, the verse is very start stop right, calm down, it's like pushing, it's like pushing you. And then the B verse, kind of really I analyze it lately it goes into another key. There, even though it's the IV chord of E major, it goes into another key, kind of goes into A really. So it's not just the IV of E, just because melodically it becomes in the key of A. And then the last chord of that brings you back to the key of E, and I know I'm getting technical here.

John DeNicola: 42:38

But then the chorus hits the downbeat. You're back to E and you go to the relative minor, which a million songs through time, you know the one chord down to the minor six chord. Here's where it starts to elevate. Instead of going to a five chord or a two minor chord, or I should say a four chord, we go to a flat seven chord and that just seems to lift the whole thing. So it's, you know, um, so it's a little different. And um, I, I, what am I trying to do? I'm trying to explain the, you know it's, it's an up, it's an up vibe, somehow. You know again frankie's lyrics um, just, you know sore, you know, I, I don't know, maybe would it be that soaring if we didn't see the movie. I don't know.

Jennifer Logue: 43:40

I feel like everything works together.

John DeNicola: 43:41

Yeah, it does. It does that movie. That movie in the beginning took off and pushed the song and then the song started pushing the movie. So it was, it was, it was crazy. I mean, you know, I mean it is sort of part and parcel to the movie that you know. You say the time of my life. Some people call it the song dirty dancing. You know what I mean. It's just, you know, it's just. Yeah, I don't know how I got to that, but oh no, it's fine.

Jennifer Logue: 44:11

It also reminds me of what something I read that you said about your song. She Said with the video and it's a really cool video that you did it features your beautiful wife. It's surreal, it's dreamy.

John DeNicola: 44:55

And I was like, oh, I wonder what the story is behind this. But then you had a line somewhere that I read, where you know you believe that art is to be experienced by the person experiencing it. It was their idea and, um, it might be jake that actually said what you just said. Um, but somebody asked, you know, asked me well, what, what's with the blindfolds and all that? And and I well, you know the originators of that will not answer that question, but I'll tell you what it means to me, you know.

John DeNicola: 45:18

And well, if you've seen the video, there's three younger people. Well, two, a young woman, kind of a call her a prairie, that's what her title is Prairie Girl. And then there's a cowboy, young cowboy, and they're cowboy and a priest, and they're all wearing blindfolds. And somebody said I said to me and this is only me, no one's ever said this, this is my interpretation the young woman is sort of feminine in a sense, and the cowboy is that equivalent in a, because as it ends, right, there's a whole thing that happens. They kind of attack To me that's the world kind of coming at you, and you come out at the end of it and you've, hopefully, they take their blindfolds right at the end and hopefully that is seeing. You know you've you've gotten to a point where you've experienced enough and and you take off the blindfolds and you see the world around you as such as it is. You know good and bad.

Jennifer Logue: 46:45

And accept it from your perspective and accept it yeah. Yeah, because there's a calm in that very end.

John DeNicola: 46:51

Yeah, that was so beautiful. Yeah so my son, as I said, hill did it and they filmed it on uh film, 16 millimeter film.

John DeNicola: 47:01

Yeah has that tone, warmth, yeah, yeah, well, that's how I describe. Uh, you know tape and audio right. You see, behind me is a tape machine. There's warmth in analog. You know that you don't get necessarily in digital. You know digital music, audible, and I guess it's the same audio. Digital audio is enough snippets to convince you that you're hearing the whole thing. It tricks the ear into hearing it. Tape is the full spectrum. Analog tape is the full spectrum. There's no tricking, it's all there and that's the warmth, that's the imprint. I feel like people still like those old records that were made on analog gear because analog imprints better on the brain.

Jennifer Logue: 48:01

Yeah, I even get myself a record player, oh you do you do?

John DeNicola: 48:04

It's nothing like it. You know you drop that needle. You feel that electricity, you feel it.

Jennifer Logue: 48:09

You know, when I was a kid, we had one at my grandma's house and, like it was just so, I love that record player right and it's.

John DeNicola: 48:18

It's a um. It's a um. What am I trying to say? It's an event. You know it's not just you're sitting with a you know an iphone and or whatever. It's an event. You're going to put that record on. You have to physically take it out of the jacket, drop it down there, pick the needle up and drop it down. Hopefully you're looking at the album cover and getting all the information. When I was a kid, that's all I did. I'd come home from school, go in my bedroom and I had a stereo system right there on, an analog tube stereo system right there on you know, an analog tube stereo system. Um, because that's all they had back then. And you know, you drop the needle and you just let the album take you away. Yeah, the only bummer is you have to get up and turn it over that's true.

Jennifer Logue: 49:07

Now it's like everything comes to us and like I know it's uh you.

John DeNicola: 49:12

You go to Spotify and the playlists are, you know, a thousand songs or something. You know it's like, you know it's sort of. I mean it's it's. It's nice to have that. A lot of times I'll listen, find something on Spotify to decide if I want to go buy the LP.

Jennifer Logue: 49:33

That's a good way of going about it, because, yeah, it is a richer experience, like I feel, like we're getting a compressed. Very yeah, you are. It's a slice of what the full experience is.

John DeNicola: 49:47

That's right, that's right. I agree with you.

Jennifer Logue: 49:50

I gotta ask what's next for you? What are you working on now?

John DeNicola: 49:53

Well, I'm finishing, as I said, the Peter Lewis record. I'm finishing another record with a guy named Robert LaRoche who was in a band called the Size, who had some notoriety in the 90s, and he's kind of doing his own thing finishing that record, his own thing. Finishing that record, putting another Rust Dust. We put a record out on OMAD by a guy named Jason Stutz who is from South Carolina and he goes by the name of Rust Dust and we're just putting it. I just had Jack White's Third man Records, master the record, and we're getting ready to put that out and that's he's just. He just plays, it's just him and a guitar and a vocal, it's just, you know. So it's kind of stripped down and he's got a great perspective. And, as I said, peter Lewis, I co-wrote half the record with Peter and we're putting that out and then I think I'm going to get back, you know, get my third record out.

Jennifer Logue: 51:03

You're inspiring me. You're just like going at it, releasing new stuff now as an artist. I love it.

John DeNicola: 51:09

Yeah, you know, it's so much fun. Um, it's such a. It's such so much fun, it's such a good feeling. The question is whether you know, do I go keep going in that same sort of niche? I, I like what she said. It's kind of synth driven, you know, yeah I don't I don't know it'll, but it'll reveal itself, and that's the fun part, cool.

Jennifer Logue: 51:34

I realize I forgot to ask you about OMAD Records.

John DeNicola: 51:37

Yes.

Jennifer Logue: 51:38

You initially signed Kara's Flowers.

John DeNicola: 51:41

Yes.

Jennifer Logue: 51:42

Which became Maroon 5.

John DeNicola: 51:44

Yes.

Jennifer Logue: 51:44

Do you want to talk about that?

John DeNicola: 51:46

Yeah, well, they were young, they were doing more rock. Kara's Flowers was more of a rock band and you know, we got we, my at the time my, my production partner, tommy Allen, was living in Malibu and he heard them playing at somebody's garage on the beach somewhere and he just, you know, he was floored by it and we went out and did a record with them. We spent a good amount of time working on again. They were like 16 years old, wow, and uh, you know, we we could see adam levine, you know had the goods but they were doing a more of a rock thing and uh, we did the whole record and uh, they ended up signing with Warner Brothers Records and actually re-recording the record with Rob Cavallo, but it didn't.

John DeNicola: 52:42

You know, they used some of our tracks and some of our songs but it didn't really take off and so they disbanded and they came east. They were from Brentwood, you know L, you know LA, but they came east and went to Five Towns College and there was a lot of R&B influence on them at that school. So when they went back home, they they kind of reformed the same four guys and they added another guy on guitar, and, you know, adam. Recently, actually Mickey Madden, the bass player, played on my first record. He played bass on a couple of the songs and adam, uh, on the voice was uh, they. They asked him what was the turnaround uh, you know, chair, turnaround moment for you and he gave us, you know, myself and Tommy the shout out as their chair, you know, the chair that turned around for them with the first ones, that sort of you know, got them up and running and that's beautiful.

Jennifer Logue: 53:48

Oh my gosh. I'm so glad I asked yeah, because I'm a big fan of them too, and you know, it's cool to see their trajectory, because I didn't know about the Karas Flowers but then it didn't really take off in that.

John DeNicola: 54:11

In that I I honestly I feel like not that it turned out bad for them, because it turned out great for them. But when they took our record and sort of re-recorded that it took a year and it just, you know, it wasn't fresh anymore. You know what I mean. I feel like they could have taken off at that point. But again, at the end of the day it turned out pretty good for them.

Jennifer Logue: 54:36

Everything works out the way it's supposed to yeah exactly. When you let it flow right, yep, yep. So with that, John, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Creative Space.

John DeNicola: 54:48

Sure Thanks. Thanks for having me. I hope I did you proud it was an absolute pleasure.

Jennifer Logue: 54:54

Oh my gosh For more on John DiNicola. You can visit john-dinicolacom and thank you so much for tuning in and growing in creativity with us. I'd love to know what you thought of today's episode. You can reach out to me on social media, at Jennifer Logue, or leave a review for Creative Space on Apple Podcasts so more people can discover it. I appreciate you so much for being here in the beginning stages of this. My name is Jennifer Logue and thanks for listening to this episode of Creative Space. Until next time, Thank you.