Cinematographer Christine Ng On Expressing Emotion Through the Lens and Working On 'Poker Face'

On today's episode of Creative Space, we have the pleasure of chatting with Christine Ng, a New York-based cinematographer who works on everything from commercials to music videos to documentaries to TV. The first commercial she ever shot aired during Super Bowl XLVI, her first full-length documentary was the Emmy nominated  Everything is Copy  for HBO, and she just wrapped Rian Johnson’s TV series, Poker Face, for Peacock. On top of all of this, Christine was also named a Rising Star of Cinematography by American Cinematographer in 2022.

We talk about how creativity manifests as a cinematographer and how Christine prepares for a project.  We also talk about what she learned from working with director Rian Johnson on the soon-to-be-released series, Poker Face.

For more on Christine, visit: christineng.com.

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SHOW NOTES:

0:00—Introduction
1:06—Sam Jones shoutout
2:50—Growing up in Queens and Hong Kong
4:50—The impact of ‘Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind’
6:43—Being inspired by Ellen Kuras
8:28—The film shoot that found her at 9 years old
10:00—Meeting her favorite Cantonese pop star
11:19—Christine’s definition of creativity
11:55—Working on ‘When They See Us’
12:00—Expressing emotion through the lens
14:14—How leadership influences creativity
16:50—Creativity is everywhere but are you open to receive it?
17:30—How Christine prepares for a film project
20:20—The double-edged sword of mood boards
22:00—Being intentional about what’s in the frame 
23:10—If you aren’t fluid, you won’t be happy
24:50—Preparing for ‘Poker Face’
27:00—Things will always go wrong but have the right mindset
29:07—The role of AD’s (assistant directors)
31:00—Building collaborative bonds quickly
34:33—What Christine learned starting out on the crew side
36:00—Making crazy camera movements happen on ‘Poker Face’
41:30—Where Christine sees film and TV going 
45:30—What Christine learned from ‘Poker Face’
50:00—Come grow over here
53:00—The importance of being kind
53:40—Advice for aspiring cinematographers
58:00—What’s next for Christine

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:06 Sam Jones shoutout
• 2:50 Growing up in Queens and Hong Kong
• 4:50 The impact of ‘Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind’
• 6:43 Being inspired by Ellen Kuras
• 8:28 The film shoot that found her at 9 years old
• 10:00 Meeting her favorite Cantonese pop star
• 11:19 Christine’s definition of creativity
• 11:55 Working on ‘When They See Us’
• 12:00 Expressing emotion through the lens
• 14:14 How leadership influences creativity
• 16:50 Creativity is everywhere but are you open to receive it?
• 17:30 How Christine prepares for a film project
• 20:20 The double-edged sword of mood boards
• 22:00 Being intentional about what’s in the frame
• 23:10 If you aren’t fluid, you won’t be happy
• 24:50 Preparing for ‘Poker Face’
• 27:00 Things will always go wrong but have the right mindset
• 29:07 The role of AD’s (assistant directors)
• 31:00 Building collaborative bonds quickly
• 34:33 What Christine learned starting out on the crew side
• 36:00 Making crazy camera movements happen on ‘Poker Face’
• 41:30 Where Christine sees film and TV going
• 45:30 What Christine learned from ‘Poker Face’
• 50:00 Come grow over here
• 53:00 The importance of being kind
• 53:40 Advice for aspiring cinematographers
• 58:00 What’s next for Christine

Transcript

Jennifer Logue: 0:10

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of creative space, a Podcast where we explore, learn and grow and creativity together. I'm your host Jennifer Logue. And today we have the pleasure of chatting with Christine Aime, a New York based cinematographer who works on everything from commercials to music videos to documentaries to TV, the first commercial she ever shot aired during Superbowl 56 and her first full length documentary was the Emmy nominated everything is copy for HBO. She also just wrapped Rian Johnson's TV series Pokerface for peacock. On top of all of this, Christine was also named a rising star of Cinematography by American cinematographer in 2022. Welcome to Creative Space. Christine.

Christine Ng: 1:01

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Logue: 1:03

Oh, my gosh, it's such a pleasure. And first of all, I want to shout out Sam Jones. The amazing Sam jazz has connected us.

Christine Ng: 1:11

Yeah, she's amazing. She's just like a creative burst of positive energy.

Jennifer Logue: 1:18

Yes, perfectly sums it up. Like her tagline is put a little lol in your heart.

Christine Ng: 1:24

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what she does. I mean, I, I met her on set. Yeah. And it was really funny because we were setting up and, you know, like, there's video village like director's video village, and there's like, client or like, creative video village. And so I just like looked over, and there was no one there. And then I was like, setting up the shot. And I looked over and then Sam was there. And I didn't know her then. And I looked at her and I like, like, kind of wave. Do you know? And she weighed? And she like, got up just like, can I give you a hug, and I'm like, and then and then we hugged. And then I mean, we became like fast friends, like, immediately. And then since then we've done a couple of jobs together. And she's just really wonderful. And I'm so happy to have met her because it's like, you know, when you get not like older, just like later in life, and you and you feel like you've met a lot of people who was like your people, and then suddenly like, someone comes into your life unexpected. You're like, oh my god, like, Where have you been? Yes. It's so nice to meet people like that. And feel like super connected very quickly. And that's exactly who like Sam is to me.

Jennifer Logue: 2:36

Amen. She's a magical human being. And it's been I feel so grateful that our paths crossed in life. And, yeah. So Well, let's talk about your career and your life. You have such an interesting background. You know, you were born in Hong Kong. And then you were raised in New York City. How has your upbringing shaped your creative lens,

Christine Ng: 3:05

totally, I, you know, growing. So I grew up in New York, but I grew up in Queens, which is, you know, one of the most diverse places in the world. And I think like growing up here, definitely impacted me in such a positive way of like, thinking of community, and just like, you know, what a community looks like and, and inclusivity. And, you know, diversity to me doesn't even like, it's like when I walk into a room, and it's one shade, and I'm the other shade, it's very strange to me, and it actually makes me feel like like an outsider. And growing up even in Hong Kong, it's like, when I did I kind of move back to a little bit in fifth grade. And even the school I went to in Hong Kong was an American school and it was still diverse. So like, every type of schooling I've been to up until college, I went to NYU was incredibly diverse in the makeup and I think because of that it's really made me a person who's just, you know, very open to other cultures and, and, and when things are the same, I'm like, Wait, this is super weird. So it on a on a creative impact. It's it's great because I'm, I'm constantly wanting to learn new things. And and wanting to be challenged and wanting to be put in situations that I've never put in before. And so you know, when you were talking about just like the type of genres I've worked in, I want to and I crave working in all the different things because I just want to learn I just want to be immersed in things that I'm unfamiliar with. And unfamiliar unfamiliarity is like, is like comforting to me.

Jennifer Logue: 4:45

That is beautiful. It's so clear, they have this voracious appetite for learning. Like it comes out in your energy. So who inspired you growing up?

Christine Ng: 4:57

I feel like when I when I was growing up like I I wanted, you know, I feel like you always want to be a teacher at one point, you know, because I feel like your teachers are so nurturing and, and your teachers are also people that make you learn things, right? Like they, they, they show you things that you don't know, they inspire you to keep growing, they're like, they push you into uncomfortable places, which is like, still what I love. So I feel like just teachers in general, like inspired me to learn. And then you know, I don't even know if I understood photography, or like cinematography, until like, much later in life. I always loved cameras, and I always loved taking photos. But the technical aspect of it and the kind of storytelling aspect of it, I didn't really understand or really consider until I watched Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which is, you know, just like this incredibly immersive, visual, visceral storytelling that, like, makes me makes me consider life in a different way. And also takes visual storytelling in a way that makes you feel like you're in a different space, you know, like lensing and, and lighting and the production design and how they go from kind of one universe to another universe to like your subconscious. And it's like, all these things that is hard to contextualize and visualize that film, did it show perfectly. And watching that film made me notice visual storytelling?

Jennifer Logue: 6:39

Oh, my gosh, that was the moment for you was that when you knew you wanted to be a cinematographer?

Christine Ng: 6:43

I think that's the moment when I when I was like, oh, like, what is that? You know what I mean? Like, what, like, how do you tell stories like this? And I think it made me really consider like, filmmaking, not just as like a career, but more of like a creative outlet, you know, to make something that's so special. And then then I started looking up, you know, Michel Gondry. And then I started looking up Ellen caress who was the DP of that film and, and just, you know, who she's a female DP, and that is, was, was rare, it's still a little bit rare now. And, you know, just seeing her trajectory and seeing the type of work that she's done. Because she's also someone that works, a documentary that works in features that is also a director, she also shoots commercials, and she's obviously done music videos, like, the breadth of her work is something that inspired me to always want to be like to have a diverse resume, and a diverse, you know, accolade of work. Because I think that's the only way you can grow. Like, if you keep doing one thing, for me, at least, I feel like I keep doing it the same way. And I, it's hard for me to break out of my own kind of like, thought process, but to challenge yourself and, and go from something that's like a huge crew to something that's, you know, scripted huge crew to somebody that's unscripted and like really tiny, then you kind of have to problem solve differently. And you have to like wear different hats, patients, and I think that's what makes you a really well rounded filmmaker. And also, when I actually so when I moved back to Hong Kong when I was nine, my parents so I was born there. My parents were born there, too. And we still had a lot of family there. My parents went back to help my grandparents with their family business and took me with them because I was so young. So I went to school there and an American school and we live with my grandparents. And I have an older sister who stayed here because she was in college. And it was the first time where I was like, oh my god, is this what being an only child feels like? Because my parents just gave me all their attention. Whatever I wanted to do was the thing we're gonna do. Oh, nice. Oh, excited to like, show me where they grew up. Because it was I was finally at an age where I could like, understand cruciate Yeah, appreciate eat. Like, remember that time. Like, I don't think I really remembered anything before. It was like five, you know what I mean? Like, and there was one night where we went outside literally stepped outside of my grandparents apartment. And there was a film shoot. Oh, and that I was like, what's going on? That was the first time I've ever seen a film shoot, you know, ever, and, and they were shooting nights. And my parents were like, could see like, the twinkle in my eye. And they're like, Okay, you can stay up as long as you want. And you can stay here and watch them work. And I was like, oh my god, like, Oh, cool. Cool. Yeah. Like I don't ever really had like, a bedtime. But the fact that they were like, you can be out was like, you know, I was just so excited. And it was so cool to just see like, a bunch of people make something together. And it's clearly all about teamwork. And I didn't know what anyone was doing. And so we you know, I stayed up really late and we got to see see them work. And then the next day we went back, and they were there again. And they were shooting some daytime scenes, like in the afternoon. And I used to really be into Cantonese pop. And my favorite pop star was there, what? It was just like, I've like everything I like everything you want as a kid, like, you know, just like came true. And I was so excited to meet him. And like, I took a photo with him. And, you know, and I think the potential of like, as a child meeting, like, he wasn't like my idol. But you know, it's like meeting someone who's famous is so insane. And like, it's so funny now, because it's like, I rarely get starstruck. I think that's also part of like, being a New Yorker, you're just kind of like, like blase about everything. Like, yeah, that's cool. Whatever, right? And it's funny, because like, as a nine year old, that was, like, freaking out. And then now it's like, I work with, like, you know, very, very famous people. And I'm just like, hey, I'm Christina. Nice to meet, you know, like, just like, super laid back and chill about it. But like, I mean, I really think like, that, that moment in my life was kind of pivotal for me to even understand that, like, this is a career, you know, and the fact that they can just stay up late and work with famous people and like, teamwork and make something like that was really influential for me.

Jennifer Logue: 11:18

Now, this is creative space. So I asked this question of everyone. But how do you define creativity?

Christine Ng: 11:26

Oh, that's a good question. Huh, ha, you know, create creativity for me, in the context of the type of work that I do, and how I create really starts with my connection with the story with the person that I'm making it with, and the energy inside a room, and how I am responding to that. And I think like, when I worked on, when they see us with Ava DuVernay and Bradford Young, who was the DP, you know, there was something about holding the camera on that project that felt so incredibly impactful. And, and I understood it was so I mean, I at that point, I had been like, you know, working for like, eight to 10 years, and you know, doing camera stuff. But it wasn't until that point where I was like, wow, like, how I literally how I'm holding the camera. And my physical relationship between me and the person I'm filming, is the way that you're gonna internalize it. Mm hmm. You know what I mean. And so, so much of it is about like, physicality that is not actually tangible on the screen in a way, because it's how I am expressing the proximity between me and you, or me, and, you know, this flower or whatever, like, you know, like, it's like, There's something so impactful about that, about how then you cut to something really wide. And that kind of shows like loneliness or something, you know, and it's like, so it's almost like, how do I express emotions? With the lens? Is how my creativity works? And how do you then bring in lighting? And how can lighting subtly, you know, also affect that emote stuff? Or how can I help tell someone's story that honors them? And when I work in documentary, it's like, how can I make sure the subject feels comfortable when I'm there, and when I'm holding a camera, because like, not everyone feels comfortable in front of your camera, most people don't feel comfortable in front of a camera. And I think if you're able to create this, like kind of like just synergy and safe space, then they forget it's there and they're able to be vulnerable is ultimately what the filmmaker wants. Right? When you're making documentaries. Is this like, intimate connection between the viewer and the subject? And how do you break that down? And so I feel like my personality and just kind of like my general, like energy affects the creativity in the space that I'm in. Oh, yes, that makes so much sense. Yeah. So like creativity for me in the context of what I do is it's it's a, it's a bit of it's a lot of that, but it's also so much about like being a leader. And when you're working on a show, or you have, you know, two to 300 people or two people it doesn't matter. There's still this like, need for a leadership quality and like being level headed and being clear. And making sure that everyone like has the task but also like they themselves are also owning the task. Yes, you want to empower the person you're you're assigning a task to to do it. The way that If they do it, you know, without micromanaging them and like, you know, you want them to feel like they're, they're respected and, and in a space where it's like, we value you being here, you know. So that's also part of like, that influences my creativity, although it's not creative at all, but it's part of this like, bigger system of like, I don't know what you call it, just like leadership. Yeah, like, and that influences everything, you know what I mean? Like, even just like coming into a room and saying hello to someone can influence the creativity of anything? Yes, it's all energy.

Jennifer Logue: 15:34

And every action we do has a reaction.

Christine Ng: 15:37

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So like, my creativity can, you know, can be inspired by the smallest thing or, like, affected by the smallest thing, but it also reflects what I'm feeling, you know, so like, I feel like, you know, generally I'm not super, like emotional, but I tried to be emotional through my mike, my creative work, you know, so like, How can I portray an emotion? How can I make people feel something, and that's hard, you know. And that's the thing where I feel like I try to do with my work. And then I also, you know, obviously wanted it to look beautiful, and I want it to, like, feel organic and genuine to the story that we're trying to tell. So like, not everything looks the same beautiful, like beautifully the same, but beautiful in its own way. And how do you capture that? Right? Um, so all those all those things, to me is creativity, like, in my, I guess, in my work, but I feel like creativity is can be so can also be a solo thing. You know what I mean? Like, I could just walk around with my camera and feel creative energy, you know, like, sitting in a park, or like, being on the subway or like, anything really, like, you know, like, it's just like, allowing the space to influence me and to like, react to it. Is is is all creat, like, creativity is everywhere. It's just like, are you? Are you opening yourself to receive it? Right?

Jennifer Logue: 17:17

That's a beautiful statement. I love that.

Christine Ng: 17:20

I say that to myself more.

Jennifer Logue: 17:24

It's another call of putting on my wall. So we all need that reminder. On the subject of your creative process. What is your process? Like, when you're preparing for, you know, a project?

Christine Ng: 17:39

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, depending on what type of genre it is, I prep differently. So if it's a narrative project, you know, I'll get the script first usually, or it depends on again, what kind or how I got the scripts, but either I get the script first, or I have a meeting with the director, maybe I met the director for coffee, and maybe then then they're talking about a potential project, and I haven't read the script, but then it's, it's, it's kind of like just riffing on again, energy and vibes, like, like, I think like, when you have coffee with someone, or even this, it's like, immediately, you kind of like, can feel if like, you're gonna have a good conversation or not, right? Like, it's kind of like gauge. And that's really important to like, then actually be able to creatively connect with someone and trust each other, right? Because like, that's part of it too. Like, and as a DP, I feel like I, my, my goals, you know, is to honor the script, honor the story, and help the director achieve their vision. So sometimes, like, I might pitch an idea, they might not be into it, but that's okay. Because I know that I'm in service to the script, the story and what their point of view is. And so, you know, I would read the script and just write general notes about it. And I tried to like, I tried to read it a few times before I have to then talk to someone. My first read is just like, kind of get the basic outline of like, what happens in the story, and then I'll go back and like, notice these things that the writer have, has done, like, you know, they plant ideas in the beginning, that that kind of echo throughout the story, and how does that? How does that grow over time? And how does that how does the trajectory of our subject also change throughout the story? And how do you portray that visually, in a way that we're also growing as well? Um, and if they're not growing, that's also a choice, then it's like, are you just doing the same things like throughout the whole thing, or just something? Is there a climax that happens that then do like change the visual language with a story, you know, and there's like, so many things. I mean, we're not even talking about a story that is real or has has a story right now or an arc but it's like, you know, I tried to kind of think of about like, well, whose perspective do we want the story to be told from? Right? And then that affects like, how the camera is reacting to what they're doing. So I just tried to do like a very, like, basic read. And then I go back and I like, try to find things that kind of appear multiple times are like a theme or like, you know, anything somatic that that. That kind of is the tone of the piece. And then I usually go and I look for some visuals. Or I try to look for like, like clips of stuff, or something, or sometimes I like, it's also a double edged sword when you do that, because I honestly don't love doing it. Because I think I then if I present images, or if I present a film that I'm Oh, it's like this, then people are like, No, that's, it's not like that, you know? And I'm like, no, no, no, it's not like that. But this is the closest thing I can find to that, you know, and like, I think, the hope is that whenever you make something, you're always trying to make something that's different. That's like revolutionary, that's like, something you haven't seen before, like something that's whatever, right? That breaks some rule or whatever. That that, that is exciting. And unfortunately, when you when that's your goal every time then there aren't examples that exist, that show what you're trying to create. And so it's this, like, do I really want to show stuff or doing not? And sometimes I just pull stuff just to like, have to, like start a conversation. So I always say like, this is just to start a conversation. This is not what I'm, there's not like exactly it, but it's just to like, then have a starting point to kind of bounce ideas again, you know, so then it's so much of that just like more conversations of like, okay, like, what exactly is this? Or like, how do we want this feel? And then, you know, then you start working with other creative people, not just the director, like the production designer, you know, like, I'm, like, this room I'm in right now. Like, I created it, I just learned it, you know, but like, has to be that, like, is different than my living room, you know, but it's also like, I don't know, like, I think like a space obviously influences like your character and like, what are you going to show about your character through the space and, and color theory and things like that, and even their, like, their clothes, and like the wardrobes and then like costume designer, and then you start working with your gaffer and, you know, you start talking about lighting, and then it's like, all these things coming together. And then suddenly, it's like, you filled the frame right with with all these ideas. And that's why narrative is so exciting, because you can, as much as you can, right like with the amount of resources that you have, like, really be intentional about what you put in the frame. Whereas like documentary, you know, you always are walking in situations where you don't always know where you're to get into. And that's like a different path of like creativity and prep. But but with narrative, it's just a lot of conversations and a lot of just like, what are we influenced by and why. And, and, and collectively as a group, like coming up with ideas of like, who a character is how do we want to portray this character, and then you meet the actor, and then you're like, oh, wow, like, this is like, you know, then then you're there and you're doing a rehearsal, and you're like, oh, wow, I just like, I imagined when I read on the paper that they were doing like that, they would read it like this. But wow, like, this energy that they are bringing is also something else. And that actually takes a lot of the prep that you've done, like kind of throws it out the window, but that's okay. Because at that point, hopefully, you've had enough conversations to actually like, not repeat, like goals, like you already know what the goal is for the scene. And even though the actor has now come up with something different than what we all imagined, it's actually just to make it better, you know, me so then it's like, creativity is just like fluid, right? Like, the and creation and that is just like, you have to be fluid about it. Or, or you won't be happy. Like, I think if you're like, This is what I want, and someone comes in and you know, you lose a location, you're just going to be upset, but instead of being upset, you can be like, Okay, maybe like this is better, oh, this space is bigger, or this whatever, right? Like, trying to like be positive about it is also like a hard thing to do sometimes, because if you really want something, but then in the end, all things always happen for a reason. And in the end, things are always going to be okay. Go with the flow. Yeah, yeah, go with the flow is just like super important, I think in this in this industry and in my role. But prep is also really important, just like trying to have as many conversations as you can to understand the director to understand, you know, or if it's a writer director even better, like to understand, like, the birth of the story and like, why, you know, and, and yeah, so it's, it's like the prep of it is so important. So that's kind of what I do for narrative stuff.

Jennifer Logue: 24:47

That's so interesting. How long would you say it takes to prepare for a narrative?

Christine Ng: 24:53

I think, you know, unfortunately, we're always it's always budgetarily a The budget dictates how much time we have, you know what I mean? So like, on poker face, which I just shot this year or a few months ago, it was, it's an hour long show. So it's 10 days of shooting, it's usually roughly 60 pages or, you know, you say, like a minute a page. And we have 10 days to prep and 10 days to shoot. Wow, which like, sounds like a lot, but then you're, you know, you're literally in a car for like, two days looking at locations, then you're trying to break down the scripts, then you're trying to get all your equipment orders in, then you're trying to like figure out a pre light, or you have to do some testing, or, you know, you're also on calls with the costume designer, with the production designer, with the prop with the, you know, props department, like, you're just on all these calls, and then suddenly, you're like, Oh, my God, like, half the week is over. Oh, and we lost the location. Okay, we gotta get back in the van and look again, you know, I'm so it's like, constant. And they're casting. So like, you know, I'm not with the director always, because they also have to do their prep, like casting. So they might be gone for a few hours, looking at casting tapes, and then I'm trying to, like break down the script, or look at like a light, like, figure out the lighting plan or, you know, things like that, and working with locations and the ad to figure out the schedule, because then suddenly, our actor is not available anymore. Or like, you know, you're constantly like moving puzzle pieces around and trying to make it work. And do it all on on, on time. And within budget, you know? So it's this constant, like conversation, conversation conversation, or if there's like a big stunt, you also have to, like, have meetings with the stunt team. And like, they might have to go do a previous for you and like, show you, you know, like, what they're thinking to execute the stunt. And how long does that take? How long does that take on set? What other tools will we need to execute that? So it kind of like everything just kind of compounds on itself? And then next thing, you know, it's like, okay, day one, you know,

Jennifer Logue: 26:57

here we go, ready to go? And they're not, you're still

Christine Ng: 27:01

like, okay, so what are we doing this afternoon? Or like, oh, no, like, this thing happened for tomorrow, we have to move this or it's snow. Like it's snowing. You know, and you can never control the weather. Yeah, you know, or there's a thunderstorm like I shot wrapped in Miami, and we shot like end of summer into fall in Miami, which is still kind of like stormy season, like Hurricane thunderstorm whatever season. And, yeah, that's what happened. Like, every day, around three o'clock, we'd have to shut down for like an hour and a half because it would just like thunderstorms are coming in. And you have to turn off the generators, everyone has to be on recover. You can't be on the street. So you can't chew or it's like continuity. Like it wasn't raining when we started to see now it's raining, everything's wet. We gotta wait. You know, it's this like, constant. Things always go wrong, like things like things will always go wrong. And you just have to be like, Okay, so what's gonna go wrong today? You know what I mean? Like, if you have that mindset that you're like, Okay, well, of course, that you know, and also like shooting all the scepter and COVID. Right, like, wow, like, enact or test positive? Or like, what do you call it? The rapid test? Yeah. Or what's the one when it's like a, like, close contact? Like, close contact? They can't come to work either. And it's like, oh, no, you know, and then you're like, trying to move things up in the schedule with people you can shoot? Or if it does start raining, you're like, do we go back to the stages and try to shoot something in an apartment that we have set for? You know, like, you're constantly just trying to be like, how do we make the most of

Jennifer Logue: 28:30

the time? And the people we have the resources we have right now? Yeah,

Christine Ng: 28:35

yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it's so much of all of that, constantly. So it's like, and that's like, luxurious prep time to, you know, like, 10 days for 10 days, and 10 days of shooting for an hour's still kind of like, like luxury, luxurious, even though it's like, you're averaging six pages a day, which doesn't include what's on the paper, you know, like, car crash, like, that's one, that's one strip. But that could take 12 hours to shoot, you know, and you're like, Okay, we still have 59 and seven eighths pages that we have to do on the nine days, you know, so it's this, like, you know, Aedes assistant directors on set are, are, I mean, they are incredible, because they are the ones who, who, who try to really see ahead. And, and mention all the potential problems that can happen and come up with the best case scenario for a schedule. And then I'm there to like, kind of vet it a little bit like do I agree, or do I see other things that could go wrong and, and being able to be very honest with my ID and with timing to you know, it's like, if we're gonna shoot in the space and it's daylight dependent, and, and I don't have you know, we didn't get a pre light. I'm going to be like, I needed an app like minimum two hours to get a crane in here to get a condor in here to like do like Whatever. And they'll be like, Oh, okay, so maybe we should shoot, maybe we should shoot this at the end of the week and maybe we'll get you some riggers. You know what I mean? It's like this constant, like, how do we map? Yeah, again, like maximize our time, but be smart about it, you know. And the Aedes are always people that I am always like, leaning on to be like, Hey, what are you thinking? Or like, you know, what, what do you How long do you think this will take us just based on your experience? You know, and again, it's also like, with different directors every time with, you know, just like just moving cast of things.

Jennifer Logue: 30:37

adapting to different styles to is something to think about.

Christine Ng: 30:41

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, even just a communication style. I mean, just like, you have to, like be able to communicate so clearly, so quickly. With these collaborators that you have that you just met, you execute something that is so wildly difficult and complicated.

Jennifer Logue: 31:03

Here's a question for you on the subject of collaboration. How do you build that collaborative Bond quickly?

Christine Ng: 31:11

That's a good question. I mean, I think like, I asked a lot of questions. I'm just like, Okay, well, so what do you think about this? Or like, Are there any films that you, you know, if it's like, let's say, it's not television, let's say it's just like, someone's like, narrative feature? I'd be like, Okay, well, what films? What films inspired you for this? Or like, what do you see are complementary to what we're creating? What do you like, in general, just like, not even just on paper, but like, you know, what do you like, and also, just like, you know, I'm like, a caffeine addict. So like, I'm always like, Oh, I gotta go in coffee. Can I buy your coffee? And I think like, you know, just little things like that. Just being kind, right? Like, just being, like, aware and being like, Oh, I'm gonna get some water. Do you want a glass of water? You know, like, just literally things like that. I think, for me mean, a lot. If someone offers me water, if someone like, like, Oh, should we go get lunch? Or like, you know, do you need something or like, you know, just things like that just like checking in, and like, just humanizing each other, and realizing that we're all humans in a world of like, chaos. You know, like just that alone? And just be like, Oh, where are you from? You know, like, little little things like, oh, you know, where do you live or like, whatever, like, little things like that, I think just just just to try and form like, a friendship at the same time. In addition to like, trying to execute something impossible, those little things matter. And, and not just with directors, like, you know, when I come on as an alternating DP, I don't really hire the crew. And so the crew, I'm inheriting from the DP that started the job. So it's like, we take turns, like, I'm shooting, they're prepping, then I'm prepping, they're shooting, and we and the crew stays on the whole time, well, interests, the leaders come in and out, you know. And so that's hard. Because as someone who doesn't start the job, I sometimes don't know these people. And they've been collaborating and working with all together for like, a few weeks, and then I'm here out of nowhere. And I have to just, like, quickly assimilate into whatever's happening, or like, you know, or if things aren't great, how can I make things better? How can I, you know, what can I do to make this like communication easier for them when I'm shooting and you know, like, things like that, and that you gotta like, it's fast, you know, and I don't even have time to talk to them sometimes, because they're on set right now. So it's like, how do you? And oftentimes what I do is I come in and go, how's it going? How's the job going for you? Are there things that haven't been working for you? What can I do better? And I say that that's like, the first thing I say, Ah, it's like, understand, like, what are they having trouble with? Is it sometimes like a timeline thing? Is it sometimes like, is, if I have ideas? Do you want me to just text you immediately so you have time to think about it? Or would you rather I like compile a list and come to you like, day six or seven of my prep where you only have two days left to like, think about it? Do you want to wait until the tech scout for me to tell you everything or like what's better for you? You're

Jennifer Logue: 34:16

going out there communication styles and yeah, so smart. These seem like simple things, but I know to a lot of listeners, this is going to be like wow, I never thought of that. Yeah,

Christine Ng: 34:27

and it's like makes such a difference. Like also realize these things like because you know, I came from the crew side so I was in a sea for a few years I was camera I still operate for other people and like my friends and stuff and like and also being a DP and I also did a little bit of lighting and and you know, if you're the crew member, oftentimes by the time you get information, it's like so many things have already been set that you're like if you had told me that you wanted to do this, I would have gotten this piece of gear or this like tiny piece of gear that would have saved our lives, it would have saved an hour of time of this or that or whatever, you know, it's like, oh, we need to go from a crane to handheld. And I need to do that fast like, that might affect how you build the camera, you know. And it's like, if you actually tell people these things, your technicians who are there to support you, and you're clear about that, then they're going to think of ways to, to make their their process more streamlined and efficient. Because if you're trying to go from like a giant zoom to a prime handheld, you have to swap a lot of accessories, then it's like, do we want to do that? Should we also think about the order in which we shoot things so that we're not going back and forth? Or do we just get a second camera and have it standing by with primes? You know, it's like all these decisions that influence the time and your workflow? And then if you get a second camera, do we need another crew? And is that? Does that make sense monetarily? Or maybe it does, because we don't have time and we want to do crane shots and handheld, you know, then you're like, Okay, that makes sense. And then it's like, Oh, if I'm thinking of a crane shot, I better text my key grip and tell him like, I began the shot. I want to do this thing. Like I'm poker face. I had some crazy camera movements I wanted to do and my key grip, Rob Harlow is like such a sweetheart and such a like, like, Yes, man. You know, like, like, yes. He's more like a Yes, ma'am. He's like, Yes, ma'am. You know, he's always I'm always okay. Rob, I have an idea. And he's like, yes. What, like, what is it, like, he's actually excited to be challenged, you know, we were shooting in this RV, and I basically wanted to do a shot that was like children of men, you know, like, kind of coming around. So you know, the characters whipping around pushing back when you like, we don't want to see anything. And, and my gaffer too, it's like, we have to hide all the lights out of frame, you know, like, and then working with VFX, like working with the VFX team and being like, hey, I need to put some tracks down. Can you paint that out? You know, like, things like that, where it's like, it has to become a big discussion. And then the way I wanted to move the camera, we you know, Rob and I had a few ideas. And one of them I had to involve art department and I needed them to modify like the kitchen. Like in RVs. You know, how they sometimes have a little kitchenette area? Yeah, so I needed them to modify the actual kitchen cabinet because it shut it out. Removing the camera. So I asked him if they could rebuild the cabinet with working plumbing, and that involves special effects to make working plumbing. So now you're just like, suddenly, it's like, I've just that alone? I've talked to five departments. Yeah, and I'm still talking to the ABS and the, and the producers and my director, and the writers, you know, it's like, it's like this constant, like, on a tight timeline.

Jennifer Logue: 37:40

It's incredible. Yeah.

Christine Ng: 37:41

And, you know, and, and while they're, while they're shooting on set, they're also thinking of how to rig things for me. So they were building stuff, you know, like, just outside of set and sending me videos of like, potential rigs that could work. And then I would like, then I would text them back and be like, That's great. I'd be like, That's too big, or like, I don't know, if that's gonna work or whatever, you know, and it's like, so it's things like that, and, and establishing like, how does Rob like to work? Like, do you want me to tell you immediately, and he's like, just tell me like, if you have an idea, the earlier you tell me, the more I can think about it, the more I can sleep on it, the more I can also talk to my dolly grip, like do you have ideas or talk to like, specialty crane places or other camera support places to figure out if there's a piece of equipment that we don't know about? Or like off the top of our head that could help us execute this plan? Instantly? Yeah, yeah. You know, and same thing with like, lighting. It's like, oh, well, we're gonna shoot, you know, it's a night. But tonight exterior. I'm thinking we need to put lights here, here. And here. We better go see the kid night, can you leave set for an hour to drive this road with me, and then see if it makes sense. And then asking locations to go and take photos at night for me, so that I can see it at night and make a more educated decision on how we're relating it, you know, so it's so many things. And that's just like, these are all just tiny scenes of a whole show, you know? And, yeah, communication is so important and just being thankful. Like, I'm so grateful for their knowledge. And the fact that they care, you know,

Jennifer Logue: 39:22

everyone's in it. Everyone has their head in the game, and they're passionate about producing the best work you possibly can.

Christine Ng: 39:29

Yeah, yeah. And like if you don't, like I think if I don't reciprocate respect to them or like, really lean into like, their expertise and say, No, tell me what you think like, you know, you actually probably know more than me. This is what I want. I don't know if it's possible, you know, and they love that like, they love that it's like, like people want to know that they're needed. Right is like to be a person that you need their input you want their expertise you want their mind you want their you know, it's nice to be needed. It's nice to feel like, you know, when, when you want to do something, you know, you can call someone you know, they'll take care of you too. You know, like, that's another thing is that I always knew with the poker face team that, that they would help me no matter what I wanted, you know, even though it was gonna be like a really hard ask. And a really tight time. Oh, it's snowing now. Oh, now

Jennifer Logue: 40:24

you got the snow. Nice. Yeah.

Christine Ng: 40:27

So nice, too much better than rain. Um, so yeah, I just feel like I'm like, respect to me is really, really important. And, and I think like being a crew member before. And just understanding that it's like, if I had known a few more things, if the DP just gave me a few, just literally a paragraph of like, what we're doing that would help me help them. And so I try to do that with everyone I hire. I'm like, Hey, this is like, generally what we're doing. If you have any follow up questions based on what I said, like, please ask me, you know, and, and over time, when you work with people like that for years, you just have a shorthand, and they know that if I'm telling them something, it's like, actually important, and it pertains to them, you know, I'm not just like, telling them to tell them, but I mean, I am, but also it's like, hey, like, this might affect you, you know?

Jennifer Logue: 41:18

For sure, they get to know your style and how you work. And yeah, there's less reclamation time and they know what to expect. And then you can eliminate that step of getting used to each other, and just, you know, jump right into it. Exactly, exactly. So where do you see the film and TV industry going in the next 10 years?

Christine Ng: 41:43

I guess like 10 years ago, I could not have predicted screaming, you know, which is wild? I mean, I feel like it's like a good and bad thing. But I don't know, I like short form content, like tick tock. That kind of like, like, will that become more and more prevalent in our lives, we're unable to, like, hold our attention for half an hour or an hour? Like, I don't know, like, you know, like, nothing little like scary just for mental health reasons. But in terms of like the industry, I, I mean, I hope we continue down this path where we keep giving, greenlighting stories that need to be told and heard, you know, I feel like, I feel like the reception for that kind of stuff has been pretty positive, that like that trajectory continues. I hope that the industry does become more inclusive. I know, there was obviously a big push for that, like, during COVID. And during like, you know, time's up, I feel like, you know, I think people are just like a little bit, a little bit more aware of it, I hope that there's like the backlash subsides, I feel like sometimes there's like a little bit of backlash with that type of progression. But hopefully, that'll even itself out and, and more and more creators will, will be will be coming from different backgrounds, because I think, I think when the industry is one sided, it influences the world. And I know if we can, like culturally, right, like, if we can have more voices of different people and different walks of life, really, like I almost had a surplus. It might, it might be beneficial to kind of like the kind of kind of intense like, I don't know, there's just so much like, I feel like racial war and culture war, and you know what I mean, like stuff going on in the world that I hope that like if there's more stuff to kind of brands together.

Jennifer Logue: 44:03

Yes, art brings us together. I really believe creativity can save the world. Yeah, I think it's just a matter of people tapping into their own creativity to cut. Yeah, creativity breeds empathy. Yes. So at least by creating, like, the work that you do, it's, that's how the average person is able to feel and sees from someone else's perspective. If they're not creating themselves. But yeah, I really believe artists, like we're a service to the world to be an artist.

Christine Ng: 44:39

It is, yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, I wish I could do more. You know what I mean? Like, I wish I could do more work to like, help that. But everything takes so long in production, you know, one step at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I hope that's where the industry goes. I mean, it's so hard to say because it's so like, political. And so many things are merging together now, like conglomerates are merging together that it's like, I feel like the amount of media that's like being pumped out, might like start slowing down, and also the economy like it's so it's all so tied together that it's like I hope, I hope there can be more work so that it helps the economy, you know, and, you know, that affects everything.

Jennifer Logue: 45:32

You most recently worked on Rian Johnson series for peacock Pokerface, which we talked about a little earlier. What was that experience? Like? Did you learn anything from that particular time on set?

Christine Ng: 45:44

Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, poker face was arguably maybe the biggest job I've done, since you know, or, or Yeah, ever. It was, you know, like, like I said, it's an hour long, kind of like movie of the week vibe. It was a 10 episode show, I was originally going to just do three. But then I ended up being invited to stay for one more, which Ryan directed. So that was really exciting. So I ended up shooting for and each episode is its own little universe. So like a new director, basically a new cast, except for Natasha, Leone. She's like, a consistent character throughout the whole show, and a few other characters, but she's like, in every episode, and we're kind of like dropped into a new, a new world every episode. So like, that was difficult, because you're almost starting from scratch every time. Yeah, you director like, you know, new vibe, in a way. And what was great about that was like, Yeah, I really needed to figure out how to communicate better, how to be a more efficient collaborator. to kind of be creative quickly, to be efficient to be. And also to, like, challenge myself. And also to kind of also allow myself to be more confident in myself. Like, that's always a little bit hard for me to like, like, be like, No, you belong here. You are the person for the job. You know, like, I think sometimes I'm still like, oh, whoa, like, Am I qualified for this? You know, and it's like, if Ryan thinks you can do it, if Jaron thinks you can do it, if Steve thinks you could run things, you could, if all these producers and other DPS who are of super high caliber think you can do it didn't clearly you're invited to the party, you know what I mean? So that was huge for me, like to be invited to be a part of that was really, really huge for me. And, and, and, you know, that group of people have been collaborating for like, more than 20 years. And like, I know what that means, right? Like, I haven't had I don't have, I've haven't had a collaborator for 20 years yet, but like, but I understand that even like, you know, some of my collaborators for like, five years, 10 years, like, those friendships are so sacred, that when you invite someone else in, they really have to be like, a really good fit, you know, and for them to only talk to me for like, 1520 minutes here and there to them Be like, no, she would be a great part of this. This community is like, that meant a lot for me, you know, because they're just, they're legendary filmmakers, like, everything they've all made are like really just like, high caliber, and different and great and exciting. So I learned so much from from being a part of their crew. And Steve Yedlin is, you know, he's this incredible DP but he's also such a like, Professor like, he just is so technical. Like sometimes I think I'm not tech technical enough as a DP. But he is like, like, literally to like, the decimal two things you don't really like He's like, he's so detail oriented. He's so smart. He can like write programs like computer programs to like, help him light a set to like, help him do prevous on like, Day for Night stuff. Like he was showing me things that I have not seen before. And he was an open book, you know, he was literally like, come sit here, watch what I'm doing. You have any questions like, please ask and, and he also taught me a lot about lighting and the way that he and Jaron like work and light was something that I got to learn from and also now integrate into my working style. And that's like, the thing is that sometimes they think as a DP, you don't grow anymore because you do things the same way. And even when I tried to, like, switch genres and switch, you know, I'm working with new creative people. My my, the way I work is still kind of the way I work and I think like, being able to work with them seeing the way they work, is just like Unlike how I've seen it with other people, and being able to actually learn from them, and grow, like, I think like, sometimes it's like, you feel like you can't grow anymore? Like, how do you challenge yourself to grow, but when you have people who are like, we want you to grow with us, no, come grow up, come grow over here, you know, like, that's huge, like to be invited to, to learn from them, and to just like, literally, to be invited to be in the room to watch them work, just observing and watching someone you are learning so much. And so I and you know, I think this is a question you asked me earlier, but like, where do I hope this industry goes, I also hope that there's more opportunities for people to shadow on set to, like, observe or just be invited into the room and to like, take, you know, take the locks off these gates, you know, and just like, open the gates and, like, let people in and see what's behind the curtain, you know, like, it's such a mystery. And sometimes I think some things are still a mystery, even though I'm very much a part of it. Sometimes you feel like, Oh, I'm not allowed to go over there. But it's like, are we just creating these barriers ourselves, you know, and, you know, the way that Ryan and his team work, it's very much like, coming out, like, yes, so you're allowed in here, like, come over here, look at what we're doing, like, and I think like, that mentality fosters a really positive environment. And then it, it allowed me to, like, ask questions that like, you know, some could say, like, Oh, that's a dumb question. It's like, No, it's not a dumb question. If you don't know, or it's like, oh, that's a great question like that. Or, like, you know, it's like, you don't know until you say it, and you can't be afraid to say it, and they create a room. That's not where you're not afraid to speak your mind or speak your truth. And that's really important, too, like, the way I work and the way I like to work, you know, and I think, and I don't know, maybe that's how I got the job, because I was, I kept talking about like, an energy in a room and how I really, like respect is really important to me, and how I like creativity is important that you can't have that until, unless you respect and respect people and honor each other. And they are truly the same way. And you know, I also talked about how I just love working with my friends and, and if it were up to me, I would just work with my friends all the time. And that's what they've been doing forever. And it's like, beautiful, it's just like, they get it, you know, and that's like, it's cool to see, like, tightens like that also feel the same way about what can be perceived as all things that you said, right, but every little thing really matters. And every little thing adds to a relationship with each other. And even down to the PAs, it's like, you know, some people are rude to pas, and I'm like, Oh, the poor kids, you know, like, they are here the longest, they have the longest days, they never get to sit down, they are at everyone's beck and call, they have to, like, you know, it's just hard work. And it's like, some people treat them like, and I'm just like, you gotta you know, you gotta be respectful and kind to them, because they're here for you. They're here to support you. And also like, tomorrow, they could be your boss, like, you know what I mean? It's all like this world. And this industry is like, you never know who this you know, it doesn't matter. Like, like, if this person is the producer or the lead, like number one on the call sheet or a PA or driver or like whatever the caterer it's like, doesn't matter. They're just people, like, just be nice to people like ultimately, like that's just like constantly what I say but like, it's truth, the golden

Jennifer Logue: 53:33

rules is applies everywhere. You know, I mean, there's a reason why we call it the golden rule. But not everyone got the memo? I don't think.

Christine Ng: 53:44

But we're trying to we're trying to I keep trying to put the memo up everywhere. Just be nice. Be kind.

Jennifer Logue: 53:50

Well, this may be related to this next question, what advice do you have for aspiring cinematographers that are just starting out? You touched on this a little bit before? Yeah, the coffee you had?

Christine Ng: 54:01

Yes, yes. So I feel like as a as a young cinematographer, or aspiring cinematographer, you kind of have to put yourself out there a little bit, you kind of you know, and I think like with the power of social media and Instagram, the people that you admire the people that you look up to the people that you aspire to be, they're actually reachable. You know, I think when I wanted to be a DP when I was younger, like, I didn't know how to get to Elon, like, I don't like you call their agent, and they're like, Okay, like fan mail, whatever, you know. And what's ironic is I actually met Ellen at Parc pictures because she DP had something there. And then she was represented as a, as a director there. And then she and I became friends and like, you know, it's just crazy how these things happen. But like, as a young, aspiring DP, I think it's like, if you look up to someone and you like their work, you should reach out to them and you should, you know, see if you can have a coffee with them or conversations if they have any advice for you, or if they could just tell you about how they got started. Or if you have the ability and they have the ability to have you on set to shadow them a little bit. Like, all these things will be able to help you with your career. And as for me, like I just kept working, like, even if I wasn't the DP, and I was like an AC, or if I was a second AC, or if I was, you know, doing production work or whatever, it didn't matter, like the fact that I was just out there, I was meeting people constantly. And just talking to people and trying to figure out what other people were passionate about. That's how you build community, you know, and that's how you build the foundation of like your web, right of this, like this nucleus web that I keep talking about, like one person leads to another leads to another. And next thing, you know, like, the person you met five years ago, might be, may have written a script. And you mentioned you want to be via DP, and you guys have been kind of keeping in touch. And then they're like, Oh, hey, I got money for the script, I want you to shoot it. And then you make this film, like, you know, things like that happen. And it happens more often than you think. And it's the more so the more you put yourself out there. And the more you go out and try to meet people, and the more, you know, as I was younger, I called myself, like an opportunist. I was like, Oh, is there an opportunity there? I'm there, you know, and just like, and just be willing to be uncomfortable and be vulnerable, but also believe in yourself enough to be able to say that you want to be a DP. You know, I wish I had said that sooner. Like I said that, finally, my senior year of college, you know, and all my friends were like, Why don't you tell me earlier, I would have had you share my film or whatever, you know, so senior year, I shot three, I think I shot three films that year. And it was like a big deal for me, because I didn't before you know, and if I had just spoken up a little bit to my, my group, my community, they probably I probably would have done more earlier, you know, and it's like, and it only takes like, you speaking up for yourself for you to actually manifest these things and like, have to manifest it for to actually happen.

Jennifer Logue: 56:55

Put it out there. Yeah, you just have to clip it inside zactly. Because

Christine Ng: 56:59

no one knows, right? Like, if I don't say, I want to do this, no one will know. And if they don't know, they're not going to consider you or think of you when, when an opportunity does come up. I actually ran into someone yesterday, I went to a Broadway show. And she was sitting like dangling in front of me. And she turned around, I had someone I hadn't seen for like five years. And she did production work on like, documentary stuff. And then we met up outside and we're talking and she was telling me that she really wants to be a producer's assistant or writer's assistant, because her goal is to be a writer and comedy for television. And also, I didn't know that, you know, and now that I've been doing more TV, and some of it being comedic, it's like, I know, a couple of writers, you know, I know a couple of like, show runners now, you know, and like, in the off chance that I find out that they need someone I can help be like, Oh, you, you know, my friend, you know, my friend is interested. And she's great, you know? And it's like, if she never told me that, you know, who knows? Like, who knows, maybe next week, I'll have a job for her. I won't. But like, the fact that she's on my mind, and I know these things about her that I'm actually able to like, help her.

Jennifer Logue: 58:08

Yes, you got to speak it into existence. We hear that a lot. But we got to live it too. So what's next for you? Huh? Ah, that's a good question.

Christine Ng: 58:21

Well, I'm, I'm shooting a few commercials in the new year. I'm working on a documentary about disability rights, which I'm really excited about. Cool. My friend is directing it. She's wildly talented. It's her first like, directing foray, I guess. But she's been a journalist for a long time. Her name is Liz plank. I don't know if you know her, but she like she's pretty, like prominent in the socials. But she's really amazing. And I, you know, I was really happy when she told me that she wanted to do it because I was like, You're, she's such an amazing, like, journalists like just like a really good storyteller. And I think like, you know, being a director is hard, and especially being a documentary filmmaker. And I'm just really happy to be able to be here to like, support her and to help her. So I've been shooting that on and off, like in the past year, and we're going to continue to keep shooting. So I'm doing that I'm filming a live taping of a Broadway show that I don't know if I can talk about it, but that will be totally fine. It's, it's, it's an award winning show. So that's exciting. And then you know, I've just been interviewing for a few things. Hopefully something will come up next year, I'd really love to shoot like a narrative feature. I'd really love to continue to keep doing more narrative things but you know, I love documentary I mean, I'm just like, honestly really excited about kind of the the things that just come up because I love the kind of like, I love spontaneity, I love challenges I love kind of like shape shifting and like, you know, like constantly having to reorganized my brain for a different thing. And, and so doing this Broadway show is like, I haven't done that I've done like stand up I've operated on on some live Broadway shows stuff. But this, I haven't deployed one. So this will be a different thing for me. And that's exciting. And so I'm really excited to learn, you know? Yeah, so it's like, I don't know, hopefully 2023 We get I mean, 2022 went by real fast and, and it was a really great year. You know, I'm just really lucky that I get to work on things that I care about, and with people that I really love, so it's kind of amazing,

Jennifer Logue: 1:00:33

Christine, you're incredible. Oh, my goodness. I am so grateful to Sam for introducing us. I'm so excited to see what you do in the next year. And thank you so much for taking the time works. Yeah, thank you podcast

Christine Ng: 1:00:49

questions and, and just like, you know, giving people a platform to talk about

Jennifer Logue: 1:00:54

their work. For more on Christine, visit Christine inc.com. And thank you so much for tuning in and growing in creativity with us. I'd love to know what you thought of today's episode. What you found was interesting, what you found most helpful. You can reach out to me on social media at Jennifer Logue or leave a review for creative space on Apple podcasts so more people can discover it. I appreciate you so much for being here in the beginning stages of this. My name is Jennifer Logue and thanks for listening to this episode of creative space. Until next time,